The Rampant, Irresponsible Hippy Thread

[Der Mike]

I recall, vaguely, JMS saying somewhere online or in Wizard mag about ALL SIDES being represented in the Civil War story/event. The only thing a few posters here are focusing on is the "liberal" taint of the story.
Would you trust, say, Rush Limbaugh discussing "liberal viewpoints"?

No, you wouldn't. Because you know he not only does not subscribe to them, but also holds them in contempt.

JMS is the same way. WAY too many comics writers are the same way.

Capt. America is going to go to Canada. America is too "fascist". Just hope he has a blast with those wacky speech codes.
I also recall JMS saying to the effect that if they represented only one side, then storywise, it would be a weak story. I agree.
You have to, of course, assume JMS is capable of making a cogent and entertaining storyline involving differing viewpoints. Your faith is quite impressive, but it's not something I can remotely concur with.

You can have noble "ideals". Doesn't make them reality.

The writers of "Day After Tomorrow", if you were to ASK them, weren't LOOKING to write a laughable film about a disaster caused by that natural phenomenon of global warming. Michael Moore TRULY thinks his films are "fair". George Clooney thinks that Hollywood is "brave" to come out against racism and McCarthyism.

What you want and what you actually DO are usually dramatically different.
Representing conflicting views makes for a more satisfying story.
No. Representing conflicting views as having EQUAL VALUE makes a satisfying story.

What this will end up doing --- and this is a guess based largely on having read comics at all in my entire life --- is create straw men, have the President "lie" to "get us into a war", and proclaim that all people who criticize the President's critics are "calling critics un-American".

Perhaps this will break the comics' world perfect record in this regard --- but I'm not overly optimistic.
IMO, I wouldn't want to read a story that's too one-sided. Advance solicitations have said some supervillains will side with superheroes, husbands against wives, brother against brother, friend against friend. Does this sound like one political vision? I don't think so.
Gee, wonder which side of the border the supervillains and superheroes will join up forces against?

Gee, I wonder which group will have actually valid reasons for their actions?
A great example: DC's Kingdom Come. Great conflict/drama b/c although I didn't agree with certain character actions, I still understood why they chose their course of action. Kingdom Come definitely had politics infused into the story; it represented liberal and conservative action/reactions to the situation(s).

All this speculating, complaining, and whining...yet no one has read the story.
I've never been raped. If I heard a serial rapist moved next door, I'd complain. I do believe in track records.
It is unimportant in the scheme of things to identify the source from this thread, but I take exception to the demeaning of 'hippies'.

Not all hippy types are hippies, but let me make this clear: I am proud to have been an ultra-liberal, freedom-marching, Vietwar-protesting, left-wing, Birch-bashing hippy in the 60s and early 70s.

I used to get my hair stuck under my butt in the bathtub (my rear was clean by then), but now it's short. I'm also more conservative now, but we needed the hippies back then.
Heck, I'll bite --- why?

What, precisely, did the hippies accomplish?

Completely ruin the entire concept of universities? Check.

Ruin relations between men and women, making them into, far too often, little more than sex romps rather than actual courtship? Check.

Re-defined hypocrisy for the millenia? Check.

The hippies did not "end" the Vietnam War, much as the current flock of pseudo-intellectual professors wish to believe they did. An inept gov't in S. Vietnam did that job nicely.
Hippies served the American way, too. We are all one, and do not deserve the polarization that pulls us apart. That was just one of our 60s messages needed now more than ever.
Was that before the whole "Don't trust anybody over 30" thing?
Before the whole "Police are fascist pigs" thing?

Don't attempt to romanticize the hippies.
I have no problem with your sharing your views with the rest of us, in spite of your sneering and insulting attitude towards those with a more liberal outlook on the world, but however strongly and whole-heartedly you believe something, and however loudly you shout it from the rooftops, it doesn't automatically make you right and those who think differently wrong.
Fair enough.

I provided MAJOR problems with the hippies. I'll go over them again here:

They were undeniably sexist.

Undeniably rich, idle white boys for the most part.

Screwed up higher education beyond repair.

Decided to confuse "being a dick" with "dissent".

Cheered undeniably evil people (Mao was stunningly popular amongst the "peace" crowd. Ironic, considering that he killed more people than any man in history) against the U.S.

Has led to social movements whose only real accomplishment is making permanent the poverty in the Third World.

Spat on soldiers who went to Vietnam because they were ordered to do so.

Made infantile behavior a badge of honor (read "Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test" and NOT have a burning desire to drive a rusty spike through the skull of every one of those idiots. Go ahead and try).

Became terrorists (the Weather Underground launched from somewhere)

So, please, enlighten me as to the "benefits" of the hippies. I'm quite curious.
GHair's post is exact. This post is a great example of a kind & courteous response to KV's posts that permeate with an "insulting attitude toward" others with differing POV's.
It was actually dripping with condescension.
Not just "a more liberal outlook on the world," but how about having an open mind and not a keyhole size vision of...well, everything.
As was this.

Thank God YOU don't stereotype people or view them narrowly, huh?
It's funny how someone can read comics that contain tolerance, kindness, humility, courage, and more; yet the messages of those stories don't sink in at all. The comic stories are about us as human beings, with all of our failings, trying to be humane.

Think about that.
No.

By and large, they are the attempts of average (at best) writers to show the world that they CAN write, all the while demonstrating that there is a reason they aren't penning novels terribly often.
-=Mike

[manwithnoname]

Would you trust, say, Rush Limbaugh discussing "liberal viewpoints"?

No, you wouldn't. Because you know he not only does not subscribe to them, but also holds them in contempt.

JMS is the same way. WAY too many comics writers are the same way.

Capt. America is going to go to Canada. America is too "fascist". Just hope he has a blast with those wacky speech codes.

You have to, of course, assume JMS is capable of making a cogent and entertaining storyline involving differing viewpoints. Your faith is quite impressive, but it's not something I can remotely concur with.

You can have noble "ideals". Doesn't make them reality.

The writers of "Day After Tomorrow", if you were to ASK them, weren't LOOKING to write a laughable film about a disaster caused by that natural phenomenon of global warming. Michael Moore TRULY thinks his films are "fair". George Clooney thinks that Hollywood is "brave" to come out against racism and McCarthyism.

What you want and what you actually DO are usually dramatically different.

No. Representing conflicting views as having EQUAL VALUE makes a satisfying story.

What this will end up doing --- and this is a guess based largely on having read comics at all in my entire life --- is create straw men, have the President "lie" to "get us into a war", and proclaim that all people who criticize the President's critics are "calling critics un-American".

Perhaps this will break the comics' world perfect record in this regard --- but I'm not overly optimistic.

Gee, wonder which side of the border the supervillains and superheroes will join up forces against?

Gee, I wonder which group will have actually valid reasons for their actions?

I've never been raped. If I heard a serial rapist moved next door, I'd complain. I do believe in track records.

Heck, I'll bite --- why?

What, precisely, did the hippies accomplish?

Completely ruin the entire concept of universities? Check.

Ruin relations between men and women, making them into, far too often, little more than sex romps rather than actual courtship? Check.

Re-defined hypocrisy for the millenia? Check.

The hippies did not "end" the Vietnam War, much as the current flock of pseudo-intellectual professors wish to believe they did. An inept gov't in S. Vietnam did that job nicely.

Was that before the whole "Don't trust anybody over 30" thing?
Before the whole "Police are fascist pigs" thing?

Don't attempt to romanticize the hippies.

Fair enough.

I provided MAJOR problems with the hippies. I'll go over them again here:

They were undeniably sexist.

Undeniably rich, idle white boys for the most part.

Screwed up higher education beyond repair.

Decided to confuse "being a dick" with "dissent".

Cheered undeniably evil people (Mao was stunningly popular amongst the "peace" crowd. Ironic, considering that he killed more people than any man in history) against the U.S.

Has led to social movements whose only real accomplishment is making permanent the poverty in the Third World.

Spat on soldiers who went to Vietnam because they were ordered to do so.

Made infantile behavior a badge of honor (read "Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test" and NOT have a burning desire to drive a rusty spike through the skull of every one of those idiots. Go ahead and try).

Became terrorists (the Weather Underground launched from somewhere)

So, please, enlighten me as to the "benefits" of the hippies. I'm quite curious.

It was actually dripping with condescension.

As was this.

Thank God YOU don't stereotype people or view them narrowly, huh?

No.

By and large, they are the attempts of average (at best) writers to show the world that they CAN write, all the while demonstrating that there is a reason they aren't penning novels terribly often.
-=Mike

First, Limbaugh is a toe-the-line Republican. He just repeats the party line. I'm not Republican or Democrat or Green Party. I've voted Republican in the past, as I've voted Democrat in the past. Why? I try to weigh their viewpoints on things. Offering blankets statements as "liberal" is making you just as guilty. I don't agree with liberals most of the time AND Republicans AND Democrats. If anybody casts all their votes for their party only, who's the sheep? Weigh the issues.

America is too fascist. Well, if you've studied any history, then you about the Japanese internment camps. Women's suffrage? Blacks literally dying, fire-hosed, K-9 units attacking humans, all because they wanted equal treatment. Hippie is a broad term for some. The Hippie was a part of the 60's culture which I thought was just an excuse for a lot of people to do drugs and jump from sack to sack.

But, something different also happened in that the late 50's, throughout the 60's: Civil Rights Movement. Martin Luther King, Jr. If any of you've read/studied any MLK, Jr.: he wasn't for only integration, his message was also of all races, the human race. The problem: History and people drown out his MOST important message and forget about the human race message.

Your posts is really scattershot, and I'm trying to address all of your points while getting ready for work. So, I apologize if I miss some.

Re: JMS making cogent points.
You don't have all the info about Marvel Civil War. This is not an insult but fact. The latest issue of Wizard mag has coverage of the Marvel event. Jeph, Loeb, Buckley (Publisher), Joe Q, Bendis, Mark Millar, Joss Whedon, and Ed Brubaker are involved with Civil War; Millar is writing the actual comic. This method used at Marvel & DC is very similar to TV show episode writing. All of the show's writers meet and hammer/argue over an episode/story and come out with story beats/outline, and after all is said and done, they hand it off to one or sometimes two writers to write the script. DC comics has done this with Infinite Crisis. All the writers were involved with crafting IC, Geoff Johns then went away by his lonesome and hammered out the script, gave it back to the collective (Rucka, Waid, and some others I forget right now off the top of my head) for editing, critique, additional advice. Then

Love or hate Millar, you really can't blame him. IMO, I don't really care for Millar's writing. My LCS knows if Millar starts writing a comic, he knows to ask if I want to continue my subscription. However, Civil War does sound interesting. This doesn't mean that I subscribe to "hippies" or "liberals" or anybody.

Never seen or will watch "Day of Tomorrow."

Noble ideals don't equal reality. I agree. Expand and be more specific on this topic. In regards to...? Equal rights is a noble ideal. Peace is a noble ideal. The right of women & men & children to not be raped is an ideal. Not judging a book by its cover is an ideal. Be specific.

What this will end up doing --- and this is a guess based largely on having read comics at all in my entire life --- is create straw men, have the President "lie" to "get us into a war", and proclaim that all people who criticize the President's critics are "calling critics un-American".

I agree on this point: You're guessing. Some people believed Bush lied to America to get us into this present war, some don't. Criticizing the President or any policitician is not necessarily anti-American either; it depends on what people are pointing out. Dissent is the right of the people, BUT I don't always agree with what people are dissenting about; again, it depends on what's the dissent.

Representing conflicting views as having EQUAL VALUE makes a satisfying story.

I agree with you here, also. However, this aspect depends on readers b/c a story could have equal points presented, but everyone has their own personal filters; they could still perceive any story anyway they want.

Gee, I wonder which group will have actually valid reasons for their actions?

Well, they could be valid reasons. But, if it's a differing viewpoint would your own personal filters allow you to admit it's a valid reason? Honest question here, not trying to be condescending or anything. We don't know yet b/c they story hasn't published.

I've never been raped. If I heard a serial rapist moved next door, I'd complain. I do believe in track records.

I agree with you here. That's why I belong to the National Association to Protect Children (http://www.protect.org/index.shtml), a NON-PARTISAN political committee that focuses on changing laws on child sexual abuse. Many current state laws favor sexual predators. Some state laws allow judges way too much leeway in sentencing these psychopaths. Some states allow (too many) the child rapist (after only several months of jail) to have custody of their victim/victims upon release. There's a reality that doesn't equal any child's best interest. There's a Republican in my state trying to pass his bill to toughen up penalties for child sexual abuse. I support him. Remember, I'm not Republican.
************************************************** ********
It was actually dripping with condescension.

Your obviously coming into this late, but if you've read past exchanges with KV, he doesn't try discussion. His method is to insult others' POV's, make blanket statements about groups of people, and doesn't offer anything constructive.

Anyway, really gotta go to work. I tried addressing all of your points. I'm sure I missed some, though.

okay, now officially late for work.

[Jan]

Moving some posts from the comics forum so conversation can continue.

Jan
Friendly Neighborhood Moderator

[Jan]

You have to, of course, assume JMS is capable of making a cogent and entertaining storyline involving differing viewpoints. Your faith is quite impressive, but it's not something I can remotely concur with.
Then I take it you don't give him credit as an atheist for generally treating religion thoughtfully and respectfully. Or providing the Shadows with a viewpoint instead of just making them eeevil. Or showing that both sides on the Earth civil war had valid reasons for what they did.

No. Representing conflicting views as having EQUAL VALUE makes a satisfying story.

What this will end up doing --- and this is a guess based largely on having read comics at all in my entire life --- is create straw men, have the President "lie" to "get us into a war", and proclaim that all people who criticize the President's critics are "calling critics un-American".
Talk about strawman arguments, those are some pretty detailed guesses considering you don't have any facts to base them on.

What, precisely, did the hippies accomplish?
Well, before they came along our government had the power to conscript young men, train them to be killers and send them off to die before they even had the power to vote. Of course, they can vote now but still not drink alcohol but that's a different conversation for another time.

Completely ruin the entire concept of universities? Check.
How so? I haven't noticed them being paralysed lately. But I don't follow the news closely. Did I miss a rash of university libraries being taken over recently?

Ruin relations between men and women, making them into, far too often, little more than sex romps rather than actual courtship? Check.
How did they do that? Hippies didn't invent effective birth control and the 'sexual revolution' (never liked that term) was inevitable once that came along.

Don't attempt to romanticize the hippies.
But don't attempt to demonize them, either.

They were undeniably sexist.
I don't follow your logic.

Undeniably rich, idle white boys for the most part.
I'm sure that's what hit the news. My experiences at the time were quite different. 'Rich' probably applies somewhat, though. Poor people don't have a lot of time to work for social change

Has led to social movements whose only real accomplishment is making permanent the poverty in the Third World.
That's a little vague for me. Details?

Spat on soldiers who went to Vietnam because they were ordered to do so.
That was bad. I'm so glad to see that at least that's changed with this war.

Became terrorists (the Weather Underground launched from somewhere)
Despite the press attention, the WUO was never more than a few hundred people. There was also some evidence that some of the more egregious actions were actually incited by infiltrators directed by the FBI.

So, please, enlighten me as to the "benefits" of the hippies. I'm quite curious.
They cared enough to work to change our society despite the fact that they had no official voice in it. They questioned authority and spotlighted areas where our govenrnent didn't live up to it's vaunted ideals. They tried new ways of communicating and thinking and involvement and politics and religion because the society they sprang from, while 'nice' on the surface, was a house of cards riddled with hypocracy.

Social change is rarely pretty but I'm glad I live now instead of in the 50's when 'nice people' didn't make waves.

Jan

[Der Mike]

First, Limbaugh is a toe-the-line Republican. He just repeats the party line.
He has been quite critical of Bush's spending and his refusal to do squat about illegal immigration.
I'm not Republican or Democrat or Green Party. I've voted Republican in the past, as I've voted Democrat in the past. Why? I try to weigh their viewpoints on things. Offering blankets statements as "liberal" is making you just as guilty. I don't agree with liberals most of the time AND Republicans AND Democrats. If anybody casts all their votes for their party only, who's the sheep? Weigh the issues.
Re-read the post. I didn't say you were a liberal. I asked would you trust a conservative (Rush) to honestly discuss liberal issues. And the answer is no, you would not.
Well, if you've studied any history, then you about the Japanese internment camps.
Time for an inconvenient little fact: If the Japanese had ANYWHERE else to go away from the West Coast during WW II, they were permitted to go there. The camps were only for those who didn't have anywhere else to go.

And Germans and Italians were ALSO interned.
Women's suffrage?
Several states had it from the get-go.
Blacks literally dying, fire-hosed, K-9 units attacking humans, all because they wanted equal treatment.
Do you REALLY wish to compare the US at any point to an ACTUAL fascist country?

It doesn't seem you're familiar with what fascism brings.
All of the show's writers meet and hammer/argue over an episode/story and come out with story beats/outline, and after all is said and done, they hand it off to one or sometimes two writers to write the script.
When all of the writers are on the same page, they won't be hammering out a fair treatment of both sides.
Noble ideals don't equal reality. I agree. Expand and be more specific on this topic. In regards to...? Equal rights is a noble ideal. Peace is a noble ideal. The right of women & men & children to not be raped is an ideal. Not judging a book by its cover is an ideal. Be specific.
If you want those things and will do NOTHING to make it happen, then your ideal is useless.

You want peace? Then you have to PREPARE for war, to help make sure war doesn't break out. You want equal rights? Then realize that equal rights isn't going to lead to equal OUTCOMES. If you want an intelligent treatment of two differing viewpoints --- having TWO DIFFERING VIEWPOINTS WRITING IT might be of considerable assistance.
I agree on this point: You're guessing. Some people believed Bush lied to America to get us into this present war, some don't. Criticizing the President or any policitician is not necessarily anti-American either; it depends on what people are pointing out.
Words fail to fully express how utterly sick I am of this straw man argument.

Not ONE PERSON has EVER said that criticizing the gov't is "unpatriotic". Calling American soldiers "Nazis" (which Dems in Congress have done), saying that Bush is the biggest terrorist on Earth (which liberal activists say far too often) IS. There is a world of difference between "The US plan for Iraq is faulty" and openly rooting for defeat.
It was actually dripping with condescension.

Your obviously coming into this late, but if you've read past exchanges with KV, he doesn't try discussion. His method is to insult others' POV's, make blanket statements about groups of people, and doesn't offer anything constructive.
I've dealt with KV far more than anybody else here has --- yes, I mean anybody else. And if you aren't condescending towards him, his posts don't tend to be sarcastic. You write high-handed posts treating all who disagree as if they were idiots and he's going to be significantly less than pleasant towards you.
Then I take it you don't give him credit as an atheist for generally treating religion thoughtfully and respectfully. Or providing the Shadows with a viewpoint instead of just making them eeevil. Or showing that both sides on the Earth civil war had valid reasons for what they did.
I didn't find his take on religion to be offensive --- nor was it terribly well-enlightened. "Un-offensive" and "well thought out" are not the same.
Talk about strawman arguments, those are some pretty detailed guesses considering you don't have any facts to base them on.
I have history on my side. If I'm wrong, I'll be more than happy to say I was wrong.

But when I'm right, I expect the same.
Well, before they came along our government had the power to conscript young men, train them to be killers and send them off to die before they even had the power to vote. Of course, they can vote now but still not drink alcohol but that's a different conversation for another time.
You can blame the Constitution for the draft. As for why the age of drinking is what it is --- considering how incredibly irresponsible kids are with alcohol, I wouldn't lower it, either.
How so? I haven't noticed them being paralysed lately. But I don't follow the news closely. Did I miss a rash of university libraries being taken over recently?
Intellectual discipline has been replaced by blatant radical politics. Non-intellectual fields (specifically, referring to African-American studies, Women's studies, Gay studies, etc.) are now degree programs. There are few places in the country where somebody is LESS free to speak freely than on a college campus. Bachelor's degrees are effectively meaningless as colleges give degrees for just about anything. You have complete whackjobs of weak intellectual merit in positions where they cannot be fired and they, in turn, become LESS intellectually diligent. They create an echo chamber by preventing differing viewpoints from getting hired.

Universities have become jokes that one must attend to fully understand how ridiculous the entire concept is.
How did they do that? Hippies didn't invent effective birth control and the 'sexual revolution' (never liked that term) was inevitable once that came along.
Hippies championed the insane belief that women can be just as fulfilled with empty sexual relationships, which has been a disaster for women.
I don't follow your logic.
Women were --- and this going to be crude, but honest --- holes for the boys to shoot their load in. Nothing more. Women were not taken seriously by the hippies, never given the "power" in the hippie movement, etc. It was a male-dominated group and the women were second-class whose only use, as far as the hippies were concerned, was to lay back and spread their legs.
That's a little vague for me. Details?
The only thing the global warming cause has led to is to make permanent the poverty in the Third World. Asking them to develop without pollution is an impossibility, so they won't be able to develop. They effectively banned DDT (getting the gov't to decree that any country who uses it loses all foreign aid from us) and that led to a startling increase in malaria. They fight "genetically engineered" food, even though it can do more to eliminate starvation than anything else. They fought against nuclear power, which is still, by far, the cheapest form of power out there --- and easily the safest (more people died in W. Va mines this year than have died in the US nuclear power industry in its entire existence combined).
Despite the press attention, the WUO was never more than a few hundred people. There was also some evidence that some of the more egregious actions were actually incited by infiltrators directed by the FBI.
Their size is immaterial. The groups that bombed abortion clinics were small. I didn't see THEIR crimes diminished due to their small size.

And some evidence that the FBI was behind the bombings and all would be nice. I can name names of Weather Underground people who DID the bombings and bragged when they were released from prison about it.
They cared enough to work to change our society despite the fact that they had no official voice in it.
"Cared"? Please. They were watching out for their own butts. Moment college students stopped getting drafted, they stopped "caring" about others.

And, ANYBODY who would praise Mao, or Che, or Ho Chi Minh doesn't care about a soul.
They questioned authority and spotlighted areas where our govenrnent didn't live up to it's vaunted ideals.
And they became undeniable hypocrites in the process. And "questioning authority" isn't always "good".

Timothy McVeigh "questioned authority". I don't see that sub-human monkey lionized.
They tried new ways of communicating and thinking and involvement and politics and religion because the society they sprang from, while 'nice' on the surface, was a house of cards riddled with hypocracy.
But they were even MORE hypocritical. The "free speech" movement has led to repressive speech codes on college campuses. Their search for "truth" has led to the blacklisting of conservative voices in the professorship on universities (studies clearly show how utterly unrepresented conservatives are).
Social change is rarely pretty but I'm glad I live now instead of in the 50's when 'nice people' didn't make waves.
Except nothing the hippies did led to that. The civil rights movement had virtually nothing to do with the hippies. The feminist movement, which has done every inch as much as harm as good, has become a laughingstock.

The US would have been better off if the Boomers didn't become the most self-important generation the world has ever seen.
-=Mike

[Karachi Vyce]

Maybe here would be a good time to explain my post in the other thread directed at jahkneebee.

Quite frankly, it was to express my disbelief that someone would be so outraged at ZHD's hippy comments that they would actually write a five paragraph post full of righteous indignation, lecturing on how hippies are true patriotic Americans.

You know, maybe they are. I just can't wrap my head around the idea that someone would take his comments SO FUCKING SERIOUSLY as to have such a fit over what he said. I mean, Jesus. I don't know if people here are just that sensitive or if they just take things way more seriously than they ever should or what.

[Dr Maturin]

1. It's "hippie," not "hippy"
2. Agreed with Vyce. It's somewhat ironic that we get a longwinded post on the tolerance that hippies showed while at the same time attacking my adjectival use of the word, which is something I do all of the time. Something from a little movie called "Full Metal Jacket."
3. Vyce needs to do something to get all of his aggression out.

[manwithnoname]

He has been quite critical of Bush's spending and his refusal to do squat about illegal immigration.[QUOTE=Der Mike]

Okay.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]Re-read the post. I didn't say you were a liberal. I asked would you trust a conservative (Rush) to honestly discuss liberal issues. And the answer is no, you would not.[QUOTE=Der Mike]

The way I perceived your posts: you were lumping non-conservatives as liberals, which I disagree with. Okay, now understood.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]Time for an inconvenient little fact: If the Japanese had ANYWHERE else to go away from the West Coast during WW II, they were permitted to go there. The camps were only for those who didn't have anywhere else to go.[QUOTE=Der Mike]

The Poet Laureate of Oregon may disagree with you on this one; he's Japanese. He and his family didn't have a choice. Japanese businesses and houses were seized by the government, then were told to relocate.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]And Germans and Italians were ALSO interned.[QUOTE=Der Mike]
Okay.

I addressed these points b/c your post sounded to me like many American voices: Dissenting is unpatriotic.
American's dissenting, like I said, depends on what they're dissenting on. Dissenting just to dissent is something I disagree with.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]Do you REALLY wish to compare the US at any point to an ACTUAL fascist country?[QUOTE=Der Mike]

Actually, you were the one to mention America as becoming fascist for Capt America to relocate to Canada.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]It doesn't seem you're familiar with what fascism brings.[QUOTE=Der Mike]

dictionary definition of FASCISM: a system of government characterized by rigid one-party dictatorship, forcible suppression of opposition, private economic enterprise under centralized governmental control, belligerent nationalism, racism, and militarism, ect.
When all of the writers are on the same page, they won't be hammering out a fair treatment of both sides.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]If you want those things and will do NOTHING to make it happen, then your ideal is useless.[QUOTE=Der Mike]

I agree, wholeheartedly.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]You want peace? Then you have to PREPARE for war, to help make sure war doesn't break out. You want equal rights? Then realize that equal rights isn't going to lead to equal OUTCOMES. If you want an intelligent treatment of two differing viewpoints --- having TWO DIFFERING VIEWPOINTS WRITING IT might be of considerable assistance.[QUOTE=Der Mike]
As mentioned before, NONE of us here or anyone outside of Marvel has read the comic. But, people here are already tearing the story to shreds b/c of their personal dislike of Millar. Remember, I don't really like his writing either, but the story sounds controversial & interesting. In previous posts, posters here took the word 'controversial' and equated it to sucking.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]Not ONE PERSON has EVER said that criticizing the gov't is "unpatriotic". Calling American soldiers "Nazis" (which Dems in Congress have done), saying that Bush is the biggest terrorist on Earth (which liberal activists say far too often) IS. There is a world of difference between "The US plan for Iraq is faulty" and openly rooting for defeat.[QUOTE=Der Mike]

Well, I get the newspaper delivered to me everyday. Their are columnists and regular people and in Congress saying specifically which you are refuting: Criticizing the government is unpatriotic. Now, I don't agree with anybody calling American soldiers "Nazis" b/c I'm a veteran of the first Gulf War.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]I've dealt with KV far more than anybody else here has --- yes, I mean anybody else. And if you aren't condescending towards him, his posts don't tend to be sarcastic. You write high-handed posts treating all who disagree as if they were idiots and he's going to be significantly less than pleasant towards you.[QUOTE=Der Mike]

Huh? I've posted about story "A" that I liked. KV would say it sucked b/c of such and such. I said, "okay." That's your opinion. Then KV would not stop about why the story sucked and could not accept that somebody did like a story he didn't like. His posts DID contain condescending comments and snide remarks. My main point to KV about disliking or liking any story is that it's a personal opinion. If you like a story that I dislike, well, so be it. I'm not going to try to beat out your liking of a story and make you agree with me. My exchanges with him have been like this. Come on, if we each give reasons why we like/dislike a story and, in the end, still hold our opinion of a story, well then, that's it. But, that's not okay with him. KV: "B/C I hate that story, I will not stop until you hate that story too." This is how he comes across.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]Non-intellectual fields (specifically, referring to African-American studies, Women's studies, Gay studies, etc.) are now degree programs.[QUOTE=Der Mike]

Now, I agree with you here, but in the area of African-American studies I disagree. Why? It's not taught as American history whatsoever. I feel it should be taught, folded in with, as American history, not African-American history. Even in college American History courses too much is left out about African-American history. So, this is what is out there.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]Bachelor's degrees are effectively meaningless as colleges give degrees for just about anything. You have complete whackjobs of weak intellectual merit in positions where they cannot be fired and they, in turn, become LESS intellectually diligent. They create an echo chamber by preventing differing viewpoints from getting hired.[QUOTE=Der Mike]

I agree with you here. I can't believe how many people have a bachelor's degree that have terrible grammar, spelling and vocabulary. Too many people use the word "boughtn'," as the past tense of "buy."

[QUOTE=Der Mike]And some evidence that the FBI was behind the bombings and all would be nice. I can name names of Weather Underground people who DID the bombings and bragged when they were released from prison about it.[QUOTE=Der Mike]

The Weather Underground acts were and still despicable. I think Jan was trying to say that you were making blanket statements about a whole group of people. Saying, "All Dems are demons." Or, "All Republicans are unintelligent." Or, "All Liberals are destructive." These are blanket statements. I believe we need all of these groups to balance everything out. All groups have good and bad ideas/approaches. Big reason why I don't vote any party line.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]"Cared"? Please. They were watching out for their own butts. Moment college students stopped getting drafted, they stopped "caring" about others.[QUOTE=Der Mike]

I agree.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]And, ANYBODY who would praise Mao, or Che, or Ho Chi Minh doesn't care about a soul.[QUOTE=Der Mike]

I agree. In Ho Chi Minh case, I'm not saying he was an angel, however he did petition twice to the current American President at the time for assistance. The President decided to side with the French. Which I understood why America sided with the French: Many of the upper class and politicians were European educated, strong ties to France and Europe in general. Who're these Asians we don't know from Adam (or Nguyen, if you want). Basically, all Vietnam wanted to do was gain independence from France; this was the same situation in colonial America trying to break away from English rule. In history class, we were shown two letters written by Ho Chi Minh (educated in Europe, by the way) asking the American President for help. B/C America was unwilling to help, he turned to a country that did offer help, which turned out to be communist. I don't agree with him joining communists, but try to see it from a different POV: solicit help from a Democratic Government and get denied, twice. You're still faced with attempting to liberate your country. They didn't teach this part in high school history.

The best source is Vietnam Vets who've gone back to Vietnam and talked with their Vietnamese enemies, and actually formed sincere friendships.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]Timothy McVeigh "questioned authority". I don't see that sub-human monkey lionized.[QUOTE=Der Mike]

I pointed the Nationa Alliance out b/c they're a terrorist organization that's American born and don't wear turbans. That was the only point.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]But they were even MORE hypocritical. The "free speech" movement has led to repressive speech codes on college campuses. Their search for "truth" has led to the blacklisting of conservative voices in the professorship on universities (studies clearly show how utterly unrepresented conservatives are).[QUOTE=Der Mike]

Political correctness is not good. I like somebody to be honest to my face than lie to me. I'd rather know their true feelings.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]The civil rights movement had virtually nothing to do with the hippies.[QUOTE=Der Mike]-=Mike

I just pointed that out b/c your post came across as lumping the hippie movement with the Civil Rights Movement. A mere misunderstanding that's all.

This is what I would call a discussion of ideas. So, if you feel I've been condescending, please let me know. I wasn't trying to condescend.

I don't have the whole quote thing down, Jan. Please instruct me how to do the quoting thing and then have my reply follow. I'm sure my post is a headache to read.

[Jan]

You can blame the Constitution for the draft. As for why the age of drinking is what it is --- considering how incredibly irresponsible kids are with alcohol, I wouldn't lower it, either.
Then wouldn't it be more fair to raise the eligibility to be drafted to the same age? After all, if they can't be deemed responsible enough to take a drink, how can they be deemed eligible to kill people? How can they be deemed mature enough to live with that killing for the rest of their lives. Or have you never run across a 'Nam vet who still has flashbacks years, even decades later?

Hippies championed the insane belief that women can be just as fulfilled with empty sexual relationships, which has been a disaster for women.
What on Earth do you think the hippy movement was about? Hint: It sure as hell wasn't organized enough to have any kind of agenda like that.

With the advent of safe, reliable birth control, it was inevitable that women would suddenly discover how freeing it was to not have to worry about a life sentence every time they said "Yes", that they wouldn't have to worry about getting shackled to somebody over a hot date. That had nothing to do with hippies and everything to do with medical advances.

Women were --- and this going to be crude, but honest --- holes for the boys to shoot their load in. Nothing more. Women were not taken seriously by the hippies, never given the "power" in the hippie movement, etc. It was a male-dominated group and the women were second-class whose only use, as far as the hippies were concerned, was to lay back and spread their legs.
And you came to this conclusion how? Because it sure wasn't like that among those who I knew. Even if it were, how would that be any different from every other male at that time? IME, what actually ended up happening was that real communication between two people could take place once the obsession with sex was out of the way. And because hippies were generally into learning about themselves, most of the men were more than happy to help a woman discover her...er...centers of pleasure.

Can it be that people have forgotten that back then there was no concept of spousal rape? That if a woman got pregnant she either ended up in a forced marriage OR left town to 'recover' from some mythical illness OR found a back alley butcher to terminate her pregnancy. Hippies had nothing to do with the incredible freedom the birth control pill gave. And like many who've been repressed for a long time, they went a little crazy exploring the newfound freedom.

The only thing the global warming cause has led to is to make permanent the poverty in the Third World. Asking them to develop without pollution is an impossibility, so they won't be able to develop. They effectively banned DDT (getting the gov't to decree that any country who uses it loses all foreign aid from us) and that led to a startling increase in malaria. They fight "genetically engineered" food, even though it can do more to eliminate starvation than anything else. They fought against nuclear power, which is still, by far, the cheapest form of power out there --- and easily the safest (more people died in W. Va mines this year than have died in the US nuclear power industry in its entire existence combined).
I think you've gone off of hippies here. Hate to tell you, but that movement's dead. Others may have taken that place but it ain't hippies.

Their size is immaterial. The groups that bombed abortion clinics were small. I didn't see THEIR crimes diminished due to their small size.
Except that you painted all hippies with that brush. The shoe doesn't fit.

And they became undeniable hypocrites in the process. And "questioning authority" isn't always "good".
Never said it was. But it's not always bad, nor hypocritical.

Except nothing the hippies did led to that. The civil rights movement had virtually nothing to do with the hippies. The feminist movement, which has done every inch as much as harm as good, has become a laughingstock.
And where did anybody say that "the hippies" claimed credit for either? That's part of the point here. It was a time of social unrest *and still is*. The pendulum has to swing both ways before society settles into newer ways. The conversation started when ZD refered to "hippie garbage" without defining his meaning except that he didn't like the idea of Capt. America breaking with the US.

The US would have been better off if the Boomers didn't become the most self-important generation the world has ever seen.
-=Mike
Every generation gets its chance.

Jan

[Karachi Vyce]

3. Vyce needs to do something to get all of his aggression out.

I'm sure I'll be grudge f!cking that girl I'm seeing at some point this weekend, perhaps tomorrow evening. The one we talked about the other day.

Hmm. I wonder if that comment will be edited.

[David Panzer]

You appear to now be speaking in some kind of cryptic code or perhaps Martian language. "f!cking"?

[Jan]

He means fucking, WillieStealAndHow. And Vyce? Read the Rules and Guidelines (http://jmsnews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=394) and you won't have to wonder any longer. As DougO says, just don't be too rude or vulgar. My call. Any other questions?

Jan
FNM

[David Panzer]

I know what it means, I was just having fun :p

[Jan]

I know. It just seemed to be a good opportunity to give an example. I do feel sorry for that girl, though. Eeew.

Jan

[David Panzer]

They do sell body condoms

[Jan]

Huh?? Then why bother at all? :eek:

Actually, what I was 'eew'-ing about was the concept of grudge er...boffing anybody. And there DerMike was using the past tense when he said that:

Women were --- and this going to be crude, but honest --- holes for the boys to shoot their load in. Nothing more.

Sure doesn't seem like much has changed, huh?

Jan

[Der Mike]

Hint: close the quote with [/quote]. :)

As for the Poet Laureate of OR, he is mistaken. Asian-Americans were provided the ability to go to family in the midle of the country. The gov't --- with some reason --- did not wish to have them on the coasts or near sensitive military installations.
dictionary definition of FASCISM: a system of government characterized by rigid one-party dictatorship, forcible suppression of opposition, private economic enterprise under centralized governmental control, belligerent nationalism, racism, and militarism, ect.
And nothing in American history has EVER approached that. Never even once came close. The War Between the States (it's an annoyance to call it the Civil War, as the South did not wish to take over the US gov't) was the closest, but it didn't even approach this.
As mentioned before, NONE of us here or anyone outside of Marvel has read the comic. But, people here are already tearing the story to shreds b/c of their personal dislike of Millar. Remember, I don't really like his writing either, but the story sounds controversial & interesting. In previous posts, posters here took the word 'controversial' and equated it to sucking.
Not necessarily. They could EASILY be calling whatever they were referring to as being "controversial" AND "sucking".
Well, I get the newspaper delivered to me everyday. Their are columnists and regular people and in Congress saying specifically which you are refuting: Criticizing the government is unpatriotic. Now, I don't agree with anybody calling American soldiers "Nazis" b/c I'm a veteran of the first Gulf War.
No offense, but I'd like to a single example of anybody who dissents being called "non-patriotic". There are false notions that have gained popular traction, but it does not make it factual.
Now, I agree with you here, but in the area of African-American studies I disagree. Why? It's not taught as American history whatsoever. I feel it should be taught, folded in with, as American history, not African-American history. Even in college American History courses too much is left out about African-American history. So, this is what is out there.
The problem is that it is taught as an intellectually rigorous program, but the entire field is, honestly, laughable. It is based on mythology and perceived slights. That it is a degree program in many schools is a little frightening.
And some evidence that the FBI was behind the bombings and all would be nice. I can name names of Weather Underground people who DID the bombings and bragged when they were released from prison about it.
The Weather Underground acts were and still despicable. I think Jan was trying to say that you were making blanket statements about a whole group of people. Saying, "All Dems are demons." Or, "All Republicans are unintelligent." Or, "All Liberals are destructive." These are blanket statements. I believe we need all of these groups to balance everything out. All groups have good and bad ideas/approaches. Big reason why I don't vote any party line.
I didn't say all hippies became terrorists. Just that the hippie movement directly spawned Marxist terrorist groups in the US. And, several of the former terrorists --- many of whom were utterly non repentant for their actions --- are now professors.
I agree. In Ho Chi Minh case, I'm not saying he was an angel, however he did petition twice to the current American President at the time for assistance. The President decided to side with the French. Which I understood why America sided with the French: Many of the upper class and politicians were European educated, strong ties to France and Europe in general.
And I actually agree that Ho, early on, did try to do things the right way and had noble ideals. His actions, though, eventually made him an overall blight on humanity. Not to the level of people like Pol Pot, but a bad guy overall.
[QUOTE=Der Mike]Timothy McVeigh "questioned authority". I don't see that sub-human monkey lionized.[QUOTE=Der Mike]
I pointed the Nationa Alliance out b/c they're a terrorist organization that's American born and don't wear turbans. That was the only point.
But "questioning authority" is not necessarily noble. It is not necessarily a positive. Many people have committed considerable evil in this pursuit.
-=Mike
...nice writing to you as well...

[Der Mike]

Then wouldn't it be more fair to raise the eligibility to be drafted to the same age? After all, if they can't be deemed responsible enough to take a drink, how can they be deemed eligible to kill people? How can they be deemed mature enough to live with that killing for the rest of their lives. Or have you never run across a 'Nam vet who still has flashbacks years, even decades later?
Military service has helped many people mature quickly. I cannot name a benefit alcohol has provided to anybody.
What on Earth do you think the hippy movement was about? Hint: It sure as hell wasn't organized enough to have any kind of agenda like that.
The hippies were the ones who basically took over universities. They helped radicalize university education to the point where even the most insane lunatic can be a tenured professor.
With the advent of safe, reliable birth control, it was inevitable that women would suddenly discover how freeing it was to not have to worry about a life sentence every time they said "Yes", that they wouldn't have to worry about getting shackled to somebody over a hot date. That had nothing to do with hippies and everything to do with medical advances.
Except the problem didn't start with the selling of the pill. It started with the hippie movement. The pill was available before the hippies really took off.
And you came to this conclusion how? Because it sure wasn't like that among those who I knew. Even if it were, how would that be any different from every other male at that time?
They sought the "higher ground" and opposed all of the controls that kept men in control around women. Reading anything about the hippies makes it clear.

Heck, again, the "Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test", which was not meant to be negative towards the hippies, BURIED them in this area.
IME, what actually ended up happening was that real communication between two people could take place once the obsession with sex was out of the way. And because hippies were generally into learning about themselves, most of the men were more than happy to help a woman discover her...er...centers of pleasure.
No, the men were little children who wanted guiltless sex and the girls were dumb and "protesting" the parents who overly coddled them. This whole thing cannot be made into anything resembling a positive here.
Can it be that people have forgotten that back then there was no concept of spousal rape? That if a woman got pregnant she either ended up in a forced marriage OR left town to 'recover' from some mythical illness OR found a back alley butcher to terminate her pregnancy.
And removing ANY stigma from illegitimacy has been a boon thus far? Not making it a "bad" thing to have a child outside of welock --- for both men AND women --- has been one of the most damaging things in our history.
Hippies had nothing to do with the incredible freedom the birth control pill gave. And like many who've been repressed for a long time, they went a little crazy exploring the newfound freedom.
The pill was released in the early 60's. It didn't become a problem until the late 60's and early 70's. It exploded in the late 70's.

Thanks, hippies. Illegitimacy has been a huge boon for the country.
I think you've gone off of hippies here. Hate to tell you, but that movement's dead. Others may have taken that place but it ain't hippies.
Look at the people who are the major forces behind the movement.
Except that you painted all hippies with that brush. The shoe doesn't fit.
No, I didn't say all hippies became terrorism. Just that the hippie movement merged into terrorist organizations.
Never said it was. But it's not always bad, nor hypocritical.
Going from "free speech" to "pro speech codes" is both hypocritical AND bad. Whining about the hypocrisy of the "bourgeosie" while being even BIGGER hypocrites themselves is bad and hypocritical.
And where did anybody say that "the hippies" claimed credit for either? That's part of the point here. It was a time of social unrest *and still is*. The pendulum has to swing both ways before society settles into newer ways. The conversation started when ZD refered to "hippie garbage" without defining his meaning except that he didn't like the idea of Capt. America breaking with the US.
The entire concept is, to be generous, retarded. And the "social unrest" championed by the hippies was bad. It didn't benefit anybody.

Well, except for the petulant children who made up the hippies.

And no generation has EVER believed itself to be as wise and wonderful as the Boomers did. Shame, since the parents they mocked and insulted actually made the world better while the Boomers did the opposite.
-=Mike

[Jan]

Military service has helped many people mature quickly. I cannot name a benefit alcohol has provided to anybody.
That's an excellent point. It doesn't actually address my questions, but it's an excellent point.

The hippies were the ones who basically took over universities. They helped radicalize university education to the point where even the most insane lunatic can be a tenured professor.
Universities have historically been places where (oh, god, I'm gonna say this) 'liberal thinking' has been popular. But the way you phrase things makes it sound like those hippies didn't have to have the academic work or to have to go through the entire process of becoming tenured which is largely influenced by their predesessors.

Except the problem didn't start with the selling of the pill. It started with the hippie movement. The pill was available before the hippies really took off.
The two are practically simultaneous. The pill was attaining wide usage starting around 1965. The 'Summer of Love' was in 1967.

They sought the "higher ground" and opposed all of the controls that kept men in control around women. Reading anything about the hippies makes it clear.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. You're saying that any social governors that kept men in control of themselves were opposed by the hippies? Respect for oneself and self control cannot be provided by society.

No, the men were little children who wanted guiltless sex and the girls were dumb and "protesting" the parents who overly coddled them. This whole thing cannot be made into anything resembling a positive here.
I'm afraid that I have to completely disagree here. Sex *should* be guiltless. IMO, pretty much anything that helps erode attitudes like the one Vyce appeared to be bragging about are to be commended!

And removing ANY stigma from illegitimacy has been a boon thus far? Not making it a "bad" thing to have a child outside of welock --- for both men AND women --- has been one of the most damaging things in our history.
Exactly how are you defining 'damaging'? I see women happily raising children alone all the time. One simply doesn't ask if they were born 'in wedlock' or if the woman's divorced. In what way has that damaged society.

The pill was released in the early 60's. It didn't become a problem until the late 60's and early 70's. It exploded in the late 70's.
And I still had a medical doctor tell me as late as 1973 that he wouldn't prescribe the Pill for me because HE didn't believe in it. The point remains that, while the sexual revolution and Civil Rights movement and the hippy movementwere simultaneous and sometimes shared activists, the hippies weren't any more responsible for one than the other. If you have to 'blame' anybody for the sexual revolution, why not point to Kinsey or Masters & Johnson?

Jan

[manwithnoname]

This thread could go on forever.

I'm taking myself out of this b/c it's morphed into something I don't believe is accomplishing anything. Each throws a fact or opinion, and on and on it goes.

DerMike, I know you're not going to like this, but you mostly engage in the blame game of everything that's not conservative. This is the same type of thing the Leftist, Democrats, Republicans and the political groups do. Pointing fingers doesn't accomplish anything.

That's why I advocate for open-mindedness AND non-partisanship. You like blanket statements. I don't blanket statements b/c they demonize and lionize a group of individuals. This is wrong.

Re: History in general
You're saying the Poet Laureate Of Oregon is wrong about his personal experience in a Japanese internment camp. Wow. I know one thing in life is true. There are many truths. Now, history you've may have read or watched (TV) has stated that the US govt gave Japanese the option, but that is not the case in PL of Oregon; the group he was with didn't have a choice, as did many others. America is a big place; some probably had a choice while others were denied. But, you like to say your version is the only version.

You may be surprised to read this, but I do have REALLY good friends who happen to NRA (card-carrying) members that are Republicans. Another friend is my LCS owner/operator lean towards Republicans, but he acknowledges that every policitical groups has bad motives/ideas/blame-game love. He hates Michael Moore, but he acknowledges the fact that M. Moore does have some valid points.

We get along very well b/c of RESPECTING another's POV and honestly LISTENING and considering each other.

I give you the opportunity to have the last word on this. I've got a lot going on that this stuff is draining my essential time that I should be devoting elsewhwere: 60 work week, research/writing novel, reading comics/novels and positive interactions with people of differing opinions.

You may not realize this but the tone of your posts are highly negative.

Your turn.

[manwithnoname]

1. It's "hippie," not "hippy"

Hippy would refer to the hips on a woman. I love curvaceous women. More power to the hippy, then. As for the hippie, well, KV & DerMike can have them all to themselves.

LOL.

[Der Mike]

Universities have historically been places where (oh, god, I'm gonna say this) 'liberal thinking' has been popular. But the way you phrase things makes it sound like those hippies didn't have to have the academic work or to have to go through the entire process of becoming tenured which is largely influenced by their predesessors.
"liberal thinking" in the classical sense is what was popular. A legitimate pursuit of the truth was the calling card of the universities. Classical liberalism and modern liberalism have almost nothing in common. Classical liberalism is actually modern conservatism.

UNTIL, the hippies took over. Then it became laughable. There is no desire to hear opposing viewpoints (again, you don't get leftists outnumbering conservatives in the professorship by factors of at least 8 to 1). There is a desire for a total echo chamber and the pursuit of truth or the free trafficking in ideas has been thrown to the side decades ago.
The two are practically simultaneous. The pill was attaining wide usage starting around 1965. The 'Summer of Love' was in 1967.
The overall effect of the hippie movement didn't hit until several years later.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. You're saying that any social governors that kept men in control of themselves were opposed by the hippies? Respect for oneself and self control cannot be provided by society.
That is, quite honestly, a joke. Petulant children NEED somebody to "control" them.
I'm afraid that I have to completely disagree here. Sex *should* be guiltless. IMO, pretty much anything that helps erode attitudes like the one Vyce appeared to be bragging about are to be commended!
Random, empty sex has ruined relationships.
Exactly how are you defining 'damaging'? I see women happily raising children alone all the time. One simply doesn't ask if they were born 'in wedlock' or if the woman's divorced. In what way has that damaged society.
Hmm, I could point to every single study of the effects of illegitimacy on children to back up my point. It's been an unmitigated disaster. Why do you think such a startlingly large percentage of blacks are in prison? Because so few of them have two parents nowadays. It's truly horrifying and one of the biggest sociological disasters humanity has ever witnessed.

Do you think children using guns at school happened randomly? It wasn't a concern until the last few years. Teenage pregnancy? Seems to be a bit of a problem nowadays. It's because two parents are in so few children's lives.
And I still had a medical doctor tell me as late as 1973 that he wouldn't prescribe the Pill for me because HE didn't believe in it.
More power to him. A doctor shouldn't be required to do something he feels is legitimately wrong.
The point remains that, while the sexual revolution and Civil Rights movement and the hippy movementwere simultaneous and sometimes shared activists, the hippies weren't any more responsible for one than the other. If you have to 'blame' anybody for the sexual revolution, why not point to Kinsey or Masters & Johnson?
I'll blame Kinsey for being a shitty scientist whose "scientific study" was one of the most intellectually dishonest and factually challenged studies out there.
That's why I advocate for open-mindedness AND non-partisanship. You like blanket statements. I don't blanket statements b/c they demonize and lionize a group of individuals. This is wrong.
I argue that everybody has a view and that everybody would be best served arguing for their view.
-=Mike

[Karachi Vyce]

Random, empty sex has ruined relationships.
-=Mike

Well to be honest, my relationship with this woman I'm seeing is almost at the level of just about random, empty sex.

Although to get back to my "this place is too serious for its own good" argument, a little too much has been made / read into my throwaway comment about getting laid.

[Jan]

Not to worry, Vyce. While your comment might be useful as a bad example, I sincerely doubt if anybody here cares a whit about your sex life.

Jan

[Dr Maturin]

Not to worry, Vyce. While your comment might be useful as a bad example, I sincerely doubt if anybody here cares a whit about your sex life.

This is why JMSNews will never have an LSD thread.

LSD? Hippies? AHAHAHAHAHA!

[Karachi Vyce]

A LSD thread here would be fabulous, but I don't think that most of the posters here could handle it, ZHD. Or should I say, could handle us.

I doubt they'd like the eventual posting of porn links either.

[Dr Maturin]

Imagine a "Post a pic of your significant other" thread...

[Karachi Vyce]

The greatest thing that could ever happen to this board would be for Matt Young to start posting here.

[Dr Maturin]

"The Mexicans give me the best weed. Especially the ones named Alberto."

[frulad]

No offense, but I'd like to a single example of anybody who dissents being called "non-patriotic". There are false notions that have gained popular traction, but it does not make it factual.

You have heard of Ann Coulter, right?

[frulad]

Random, empty sex has ruined relationships.

Well, having been in relationships that run the gamut between random, empty sex and deeply meaningful sexual relationships, I find you to be wrong here. Perhaps you're not trying hard enough and are projecting your relationship problems here. (Though I'm no psychologist...)



More power to him. A doctor shouldn't be required to do something he feels is legitimately wrong.

Then honestly, he shouldn't have become a doctor. Doctors are bound by the ethics of their profession to provide care for all, regardless of their own personal belief. I don't want to go back to the story of how the man who discovered blood-typing bled to death in a Southern hospital because it was a "whites only" hospital and he was black. If you have a problem with the job, quit.

[Jan]

:
More power to him. A doctor shouldn't be required to do something he feels is legitimately wrong.

Then honestly, he shouldn't have become a doctor. Doctors are bound by the ethics of their profession to provide care for all, regardless of their own personal belief. I don't want to go back to the story of how the man who discovered blood-typing bled to death in a Southern hospital because it was a "whites only" hospital and he was black. If you have a problem with the job, quit.
I wouldn't even go that far, especially as this particular Dr. was probably practicing long before the Pill came along. He *should* however, have made his limitations clear before conducting the exam since it was plainly noted on his own form what it was I was there for. But yeah as time went on, I hope he specialized in obstetrics if his conscience wouldn't allow him to prescribe an effective form of birth control. I never found out why he didn't 'believe' in it as the conversation went something along the lines of: "I don't believe in the Pill." "Fine, I don't believe in paying any bill you present." and I never got one, either.

Teenage pregnancy? Seems to be a bit of a problem nowadays. It's because two parents are in so few children's lives.
Teen pregnancy has *always* been a problem. At least judging from the fact that I have a half sister we never knew about until after my mother's death and the several high school freshmen who were pregnant in my class almost 40 years ago. As long as there are myths that you can't get pregnant the first time and no effective means of sexual education in schools, it'll be that way.

As for the effects of not having two parents in children's lives, why not blame no-fault divorce laws instead of the hippy movement?

Jan

[Der Mike]

You have heard of Ann Coulter, right?
It wasn't due to them dissenting.

[Dr Maturin]

Let's remember WHO was saying "traitor" and "un-American" in the 2004 campaign. It was the Democrat party.

[Harrdy]

I am an outsider, so I cannot see the full picture. But I can say how america is seen in a foreign country. We see a deeply shizoid country, there where the Founding Fathers had good and rich ideas, but they are today forgotten, or at least it seems that way from here. There was an "attack", and suddently the whole behemoth moved in a different direction. Maybe it was moving before, but we didn't see/feel it. But then suddently there where news after news and people began to change their opinion.

Less than ten years ago america was something "holy", you didn't speak bad of them. After all, they freed us from bad Hitler (who was from austria, by the way). They helped us after the war (even as I know today there was a significant stratetical value to it). They brought us Television (at least many channels), Movies (Hollywood), Music (Rock&Roll), SPACE! (jeah, riding the rocket to the sky!!) and so on. America was great. Right after the war until ten years ago there was the american culture taking over, but nobody cared. I thought in school that one day the whole world would be one day "America". And let's not forget, europe thought america would help them against the big bad UDSSR.

But then two trends began to emerge. First there is growing concern about global investment. A *lot* of small companies close down, and here in austria more than 3/4 of all workplaces are small business places. With the founding of a united europe there was for the first time a different future possible (contrary to "united earth states under america"). But sadly the european union began to move towards the same goals as the - now considered at least partly bad - big player (USA). "The economy, stupid". The neoconservative voice grew louder, and most people here think that the neoconservative idea stems from the USA. That might be wrong, but first we heard it in the News (about the US), and then our own leaders repeat it. So the connection was easy.

The second trend was the unilaterism (sp?) of the United States. It's like in school, if somebody bullies everybody he splits the class. The one half is right behind the bullie, "friends" with him. The other half is on the run, trying to avoid him. But it gets near impossible to meld the class again, until the bullie stopy bulliing or he gets removed. And the same trend shows in global politics today. There was no need to say: "Who isn't with us is against us", the actions came by itself. Maybe there is no interrest in a united world, maybe the goal was to far away. Maybe we have forgotten to dream of a better future. Maybe there is no utopia left. But it damn feels like there is no hope left, and without hope there is only death.

Jup, there are much more views and opinions, I could write on and on... but then again, all that because of one small sentence?

Let's remember WHO was saying "traitor" and "un-American" in the 2004 campaign. It was the Democrat party.

I just wanted to point out one little idea. America was considered "good" about ten years ago (and before, regardless which party was in power!), now it is on par with North Korea, Israel, China. Just another power drunk country. And that might be unfair, but it is what most people here think.

PeAcE

[frulad]

Interesting prespective Harrdy. Thanks for your thoughts.

[Dr Maturin]

I just wanted to point out one little idea. America was considered "good" about ten years ago (and before, regardless which party was in power!), now it is on par with North Korea, Israel, China. Just another power drunk country.

Better than being plain drunk, I guess...

[Karachi Vyce]

Time to quote Flair, ZHD.

"You may not LIKE it......but you will learn to LOVE it! Why? Bottom line: we are, the best thing going today."

WHOOOO!

*holds up four fingers*

We need someone else here, ZHD, you, me and Mike only make three. Let's convince Marney to come here and sit back and watch the entire board melt into oblivion the second she really gets aggravated.

[Dr Maturin]

Marney would be banned within one hour.

[Karachi Vyce]

Marney would be banned within one hour.

That's why I love her. Heart and soul.

[Dr Maturin]

I love her because she's hawt and I can't have her.

[Karachi Vyce]

I have a fantasy about Marney. I wonder if I should post it here. LSD, baby.

[Dr Maturin]

Does it involve kicking back with a beer and enjoying the show?

[Harrdy]

Now I wonder... does it need a masochistic taint to be conservative? :D

PeAcE

[Dr Maturin]

Now I wonder... does it need a masochistic taint to be conservative? :D

A European "conservative," no. American? Definitely. We have to know about torture and all that good stuff, after all.

[Karachi Vyce]

Does it involve kicking back with a beer and enjoying the show?

Oh hell no. I've never been one of those guys who like to just watch, I need to be involved.

My idol, the man you know as Milky, has the best line about that sort of situation, which sums up my thoughts exactly: Bitch, you can do that on your OWN time.

[Towelmaster]

bigot

One entry found for bigot.

Main Entry: big·ot
Pronunciation: 'bi-g&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, hypocrite, bigot

: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

- big·ot·ed /-g&-t&d/ adjective
- big·ot·ed·ly adverb



- No use trying to talk to people who think all hippies were assholes who screwed the U.S.A.

- No use in trying to talk to people who think that the U.S. cannot make mistakes.

- No use in trying to talk to people who still think Liberal means left-wing, a word they spell like c-o-m-m-u-n-i-s-t.

- No use in trying to talk to people who talk in absolute statements that leave no room for discussion.

- No use in trying to talk to people who implicitly state that even Ghandi was a useless person because 'he did not prepare for war and so could never achieve peace'.

- No use in trying to talk to people who come to this forum although they don't even remotely like JMS or his work.

- No use in trying to talk to people who do not accept the first valid argument when it comes from a non-american.

- No use in trying to talk to people who simply cannot change their opinion about anything because they know no doubt.

- Definitely no use in trying to talk to people who consider Michael Moore a complete asshole but at the same time consider Ann Coulter to be anything more than a loud-mouthed ill-informed foul-spouting bitch who writes to insult and most of all to earn loads of money.

Oh, and my congratulations on the 286 billion dollars a year losses that the U.S. tourist-industry makes because the authorities treat foreigners as criminals by default. Put some more iris-scan machines up please, the world loves you for it. And how about a bit more of those full body cavity searches? Gotta love 'em!


Hell! I might actually get a sequel out of this. Right Captain Montoya? Keep it going people! :cool:

<lurkers-marker>

p.s. Thanks Hardy, that was a long but very nice posting you put up. Indeed.

(I'd almost forget that Frank Zappa was an American too. (This remark is there to give people a chance to rant on about commie Zappa)

[Karachi Vyce]

I don't know if Zappa was a commie, but he was an incredibly shitty musician.

[Dr Maturin]

Ghandi's reputation is so wonderful, isn't it? He's the guy who said that Hitler wasn't that bad.

And not like JMS or his work? I thought JMS's work is supposed to promote discussion? Shall we leave and let this place become a liberal circle jerk?

Vyce...we may just need to bring all of Los Mags. Problem is, I don't even remember every member of the Magnificent 7...

Mike, you, me, Marney, teke182, kkktookmybabyaway, uh...

[Jan]

And not like JMS or his work? I thought JMS's work is supposed to promote discussion? Shall we leave and let this place become a liberal circle jerk?
Not at all. Anybody who doesn't want to deal with a particular poster and his or her views can simply put that poster on 'Ignore'. But all opinions are expressable as long as they adhere to the Rules and Guidelines.

Jan
Moderator

[David Panzer]

I keep forgetting that "Anyone who likes the works of JMS is liberal by default"

Both conservatives and liberals enjoy whining like a 2 year old who doesn't get their way, so all I can do is laugh at them

[frulad]

I don't know if Zappa was a commie, but he was an incredibly shitty musician.

Ummm.... Please go off and study music theory and composition and then get back to us.

[Dr Maturin]

I keep forgetting that "Anyone who likes the works of JMS is liberal by default"

Both conservatives and liberals enjoy whining like a 2 year old who doesn't get their way, so all I can do is laugh at them

I like some of his work, and I'm far from being anything by default.

[Jan]

At the risk of sounding like the Topic Police, could we please discuss subjects, not each other?

Thankyouverymuch.

Jan
FNM

[manwithnoname]

At the risk of sounding like the Topic Police, could we please discuss subjects, not each other?

Thankyouverymuch.

Jan
FNM

discuss: to talk or write about; take up in conversation or in a discourse; consider and argue the pros and cons of.

discussion: the act of discussing; talk or writing in which the pros and cons or various aspects of a subject are considered.

dialogue: 1. a talking together; conversation 2. interchange and discussion of ideas, esp. when open and frank, as in seeking mutual understanding or harmony.

I offer these definitions for everyone's...consideration.

I am not commenting about the topic of this thread. I am not commenting about politics. I extricated myself from this specific thread b/c too many posters have a different definition of discussion.

I felt the spirit displayed here was too negative. I try, though not always successfully, to avoid negativity. I believe negativity draws in many too easily; once pulled in, negativity transforms dialogue into derogatory monologues, open minds into narrow minds (close minds?), and a friendly environment into a defensive environment.

We channel the negativity into proving our righteousness while trying to prove the other's unrighteousness. None of us is righteous. None.

Negativity is too draining upon everyone's soul (if those of you out there believe in a soul). It is an aspect of life that devours one's self, and immense waste of our short time on earth.

We've all seen and experienced the proliferation of communication devices. All of us can now communicate, sometimes, instantly with anybody, anywhere in the world. But, here's the wrinkle: Our society, maybe the world?, has lost the art of discussion.

The majority of my posts advocate for open-mindedness: considering another's thoughts, perspective, insights, biases, opinions, prejudices.

Yesterday, I had a face-to-face discussion with a husband and wife I've known for many years. The topic was potentially explosive, exponentially. I was really apprehensive in meeting them. You know what happened? We held dialogue. We held a discussion. How? Humbleness. Kindness. Open minds. Hearing and listening, simultaneously. At the end of our discussion: we shook hands and hugged one another. My respect for them grew 1,000%.

Old saying: "My way or the highway."

I believe it's the Highway to Hell, honestly.

I bid you all peace and contemplation.

[Karachi Vyce]

Old saying: "My way or the highway."

I believe it's the Highway to Hell, honestly.

I bid you all peace and contemplation.

*laughs*

Your Thetan level is too high.

[manwithnoname]

Your Thetan level is too high.

I honestly don't know the definition of "Thetan."

I looked up "theta" and "thetic" in the dictionary. It didn't give me any insight to what you're saying. I'm not being sarcastic or anything, just curious about the word definition.

thanks.

theta:

Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'thA-t&, chiefly British 'the-t&
Etymology: Greek theta, of Semitic origin; akin to Hebrew teth teth
1 : the 8th letter of the Greek alphabet

[Jan]

It's a reference to Scientology and if I understand the term (possi-probably not very well), I think Vyce misused it. Wikipedia has an entry for it if you're interested.

Seeing as how the discussion has gone into a discussion of discussion and dictionary definitions and ridicule, I'm closing this thread.

Jan
Moderator