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  #16  
Old 06-09-2018, 08:36 AM
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Whispers using human hosts for his goals has been a thing since season 1. It's not a new thing in the finale. You can't blame the finale for things you didn't like in earlier seasons!
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  #17  
Old 06-09-2018, 12:03 PM
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Right! All done watching the finale.

Cards on the table, I really struggled with this episode. The finale wants to do so many things at the same time, that it ends up doing nothing well at all. It races from thing to thing with no regard for pacing, character or plot. It just spews everything it has and hopes it will somehow cohere into something more than its moving parts. Up until the Eiffel tower scenes it left me very cold, and I found it really hard to suspend disbelief or care about the breakneck sequence of scenes.

WHAT I LIKED:

-We finally get the whole Angelica story, albeit a bit rushed, and done in weird info dump fashion.

-Cool to see the whole cluster together in Paris.

-The final scenes in Paris were nice, and had far more power than anything before it. This felt more Sense8 than all the big shootouts.

WHAT I DISLIKED:

-No one character really gets much in the way of quality moments due to the feature length nature of the episode. I get that it's more like a film, but this still felt lacking somehow.

-The Wolfgang / Whispers exchange seemed so very rushed and of very little consequence. There was no real tension and it all came off as bit contrived and pointless to me.

-Which leads me to - Suddenly all of the Sensates are action heroes and cold blooded killers; and are more than content to mow down wave after wave of people with automatic weapons without a second thought. The spiel about Sensates being connected and therefore inherently less violent and more caring rings empty here, because bad guys are bad, not people. Duh. Rajan somehow isn't totally horrified by all this, nope, he's totally up for shooting some people too. I couldn't get behind any of this after the strong anti-gun violence message in S2.

-I've already touched on it, but I found the Whispers reveal (his core motivations) really very weak. We don't get any kind of fully fleshed out character, no real driving force or reasoned motivation, no shades of black and white, just 'he wants to be immortal', which is rooted in an idea that's been recycled ad nauseam by the Wachowskis in their films. It appears they've struggled to come up with any new ideas since The Matrix. The ability sharing, the host/feeding off others to prolong life and so forth, it all goes back to that very successful blockbuster.

I'm sick to death of shallow bad guys, the whole BPO thing was vague as anything and borders on laughable. What does the chairman want? What's his motivation, why do we care? What of the internal BPO struggle? Why are they so inept? I struggled with this a lot. I still find it hard to buy into the cluster being a threat or surviving against a well funded EVIL corporation like BPO.

-There are practically no consequences for actions, there are no tangible costs for the cluster. Everything goes their way and gun wounds are definitely not a problem.

-I couldn't keep track who was and wasn't on blockers, and sharing seemed to happen when it was convenient. I thought this could have been a bigger obstacle.

-The end game of YAY, NOW THE CORE OF BPO ARE ALL DEAD WE CAN ALL HAVE AN ORGY just fell very flat for me.

-The sanctuary, 'place in between' with the Mother, made very little sense to me, those people are still going to have a fixed location in the physical world. The concept didn't work for me, there seemed to be no narrative purpose apart from the Angelica Info dump which felt clunky as anything.

So, on the whole, I'm pleased there's a final episode, but I could have used less shoot outs and car chases and more depth of character and plot. I struggled to be emotionally invested in any of it apart from the closing scene at the Eiffel Tower, even that felt a bit overwrought, but it's Sense8 and I expect it to be really OTT in this regard.

Props to them for getting it made, but I wish JMS had been there to maybe bring some order and perhaps some balance in terms of costs and consequences to the final chapter. And apologies in advance for being a critical guy. I wanted to love it... but, it wasn't to be. I think Sense8 just isn't the show I wanted. I still feel like the core concept could have been so much more.
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Last edited by Ubik; 06-09-2018 at 12:49 PM.
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  #18  
Old 06-09-2018, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by sense8ional View Post
Whispers using human hosts for his goals has been a thing since season 1. It's not a new thing in the finale. You can't blame the finale for things you didn't like in earlier seasons!
True, but his motivation reveal is new, and I it just made me groan. I guess I wanted some kind of root cause / trigger point I could relate to in terms of why Whispers does what he does.

I am still none the wiser as to why he killed his whole cluster other than 'he's real bad, he's real crazy'....

I guess I wanted my bad guys more grey than black and white, because people aren't one or the other, they're a bit of both. That's something I've felt Sense8 sorely lacks. Any enemy of the cluster is painted in one colour, and I find it maddeningly simplistic for a show about morals, connection and empathy.
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  #19  
Old 06-09-2018, 01:06 PM
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Nah, you are absolutely right about the lack of depth for the bad guys. But it's clearly due to crazy time constraints. I mean after the reveal, we all expect the hero (Will) to have one final confrontation with Whispers, and call him out on his motivation, and then Whispers can confirm/deny/expand on it, etc. This happens in like every single movie, ever. Including your much hated Jupiter Ascending, lol! It just makes sense.

The fact it didn't happen here, but instead Will gets the infodump via Jonas, and next thing you know Will gets rid of Whispers from afar, to avoid wasting time on a confrontation, points to them having no time to provide more than the basics. A need to compress 20 minutes of film, to 5, basically.

Also the zombie drone itself who Jonas used, came out of?? where exactly? We are meant to believe Jonas stashed him somewhere inside the helicopter hidden? or? Because otherwise who was "driving" him up to the point Jonas took control? Who got him to the right place, the right time, for Jonas to take over?

Still, despite these flaws, I'm very satisfied with the finale because it does provide closure (it's an infinitely better season finale than the previous one), and because its highs (and especially the last 30 minutes), are pretty high, for me. And in general I thought it was fun.

If I were super strict I would rate it 3/5, but because of the parts that I really liked, I can't go lower than 4/5.
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  #20  
Old 06-09-2018, 01:35 PM
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Just finished a first watch. Probably won't watch it again until doing a full series rewatch.

What I liked:

- That so many of the sidekicks were included. And that Bug had a good part.

- That they were able to tie up as much as they did even if it was rushed in parts.

- That Rajan and Jonas turned out to be good guys in the end.

- I liked Kala better in this. No dithering about.

- I also liked that Rajan was able to accept Wolfgang (though the explanation of his part in her life seems to have been left on the cutting room floor).

What I didn't:

- This one's a *hate*, actually. That Janet, Nomi's mother changed her entire personality and all her thinking just from a pot brownie. Frankly, it would have been far more effective if she'd just congratulated Nomi and Amanita sincerely. Maybe even a hug. But that? Blech.

- Wish we'd been able to see more of Felix.

- Didn't care for the new actor playing young Wolfgang. I completely understand the need for recasting but the new one didn't sell the intensity of the original.

- Some of the fights were far too long and there were too many of them. And I'm with Ubik about the willingness of the cluster to kill without the slightest hint of remorse. If Wolfgang has infected them all that badly, it may be a good thing the show's not continuing.

- And most of all - and this will probably be unpopular - that it didn't make me feel much of anything. Yeah, I'm glad that it seems everybody gets to live happily ever after but I felt more watching the LA premier singing of 'What's Up' than I did the entire finale. And that's sad, to me.
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  #21  
Old 06-09-2018, 02:11 PM
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Quick update, Are we really supposed to think they have all become cold blooded killers or were they being controlled by those who weren't afraid to kill? I thought the scene with Kala and Wolfgang showed it best; that he was moving up one staircase while at the same time taking her over and killing people the way he was going. This became especially true during the scene where Rajan wanted to learn to shoot.

And I was actually surprised how much it made me feel, but I am a push over. Plus my niece was born yesterday so it was an all around emotional day.

It isn't perfect, but I think it is about as perfect as it could have been given the complexity of the story. Seriously, we got an entire season shoved into two and a half hours. I wish there could have been more and then some things might have gelled better. I definitely agree that Whispers went out with kind of a whimper, but did he deserve the grand spectacle he would have wanted? LOL Yes I would have liked to see more happen with him in the later stages of the finale because I thought Terrence Mann was great.

And yes it was definitely silly that Nomi's mom had a change of heart, but (A.) she did come to Paris for the wedding and (B.) we don't know that it was just one pot brownie nor do we know that it was just a "Pot" brownie - maybe Puck made them. (When he showed up the hair thing had me rolling.) But yes it was a silly happy ending. And yes I am sad it is over.

OBTW - As soon as Rajan and Wolfgang met I KNEW there was a spark. I think that was sooo well done and I am sooo glad they thought to do that. I didn't think things would end up in bed, but I saw from the first moment that they were going to bond.
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  #22  
Old 06-09-2018, 02:27 PM
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- And most of all - and this will probably be unpopular - that it didn't make me feel much of anything. Yeah, I'm glad that it seems everybody gets to live happily ever after but I felt more watching the LA premier singing of 'What's Up' than I did the entire finale. And that's sad, to me.
Yes, same here. There were no high stakes really. No evolution of character that made me care any more or less than I already did. No one is really put through the wringer, no one has to make hard choices. (okay Jonas perhaps, but that seems like the outcome he had envisioned anyway). BPO is dispatched with overwhelming ease and everyone lives happily ever after. I honestly thought the Wolfgang trade off might have been higher in terms of what it cost the cluster. At no point did I feel like there was any dramatic tension or risk.

I have a nagging suspicion that JMS dropping off the show has had an impact. The characters seemed more and more like ciphers for the show's central message and this to me diminished them somewhat. I feel like the balance and anchoring realism went out of it with S2 and the finale. The internal logic wasn't as tight, and part of me continues to feel the core idea could have been explored in far more interesting ways.

Lila's plot was also very tacked on and really didn't add anything.

I was also deeply saddened that BPO remained the simplistic shallow BIG EVIL CORPORATION bad guy. Really disappointing, and I joked that I'd be so unimpressed if this turned out to be the case when discussing S1.
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Last edited by Ubik; 06-09-2018 at 02:36 PM.
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  #23  
Old 06-09-2018, 02:42 PM
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Yes I would have liked to see more happen with him in the later stages of the finale because I thought Terrence Mann was great.
I thought the performance itself of Mann's was his best in the entire show. He was just sitting in his chair looking at a wall.. but he was able to really get under my skin just fine!

Right now I'm rewatching select scenes and playing "spot the double". So many shots where Amanita, Lito, and Hernando are missing, have their backs turned to their camera, they are obscured by some other character, or are in the background, to hide the fact the actors weren't available that day!

This is neither Agyeman, Silvestre, nor Herrera playing their roles!



It's a small miracle they were able to put it together as good as they did given all the difficulties.
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  #24  
Old 06-09-2018, 03:17 PM
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I have a nagging suspicion that JMS dropping off the show has had an impact. The characters seemed more and more like ciphers for the show's central message and this to me diminished them somewhat. I feel like the balance and anchoring realism went out of it with S2 and the finale. The internal logic wasn't as tight, and part of me continues to feel the core idea could have been explored in far more interesting ways.
As do I (though it tends to get me jumped on when I say that). IME, he's got a knack for a sentence or phrase that enhances the emotional payoff of some scenes, whether it's with a quip or just a well-turned phrase.

As you said, season 2 lost something, too, and my thinking is that it may have been at least in part due to Lana constantly changing the script during shooting.
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  #25  
Old 06-10-2018, 03:18 AM
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As you said, season 2 lost something, too, and my thinking is that it may have been at least in part due to Lana constantly changing the script during shooting.
Whilst there's nothing to confirm that this was a contributing factor, we all know how precious JMS was about B5 scripts not being tampered with. There was no room for improv with the dialogue!
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  #26  
Old 06-10-2018, 03:44 AM
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Message from JMS this morning:

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  #27  
Old 06-10-2018, 10:24 AM
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Message from JMS this morning:

Classy. Best tweet I've seen from JMS on Sense8.
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  #28  
Old 06-12-2018, 03:45 PM
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Finally watched it.

It's... it's OK. I'm glad the story isn't left hanging. But it could and should have been more. It feels more like fan service (or even fan fiction) than like a story, and the overwhelming ease with which everything happens robs the moments of their emotion. A lot is also recycled from previous seasons, as if the show had become too self-aware, as if its gaze had turned inward.

It's a celebration of the show, rather than an ending to the show. This becomes quite clear when we start seeing all the behind the scenes footage during the credits. It's incredibly sweet, of course, but in the end the only thing that really got to me emotionally was the footage of Brian J. Smith crying.

Again, I'm happy that the show no longer ends on a cliffhanger, and I'm still a huge fan of the Wachowskis (Matrix Reloaded & Revolutions and Cloud Atlas are all masterpieces as far as I'm concerned) but you can tell the absence of JMS in the lack of structure and in the drift away from consequences and attention to detail.
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  #29  
Old 06-13-2018, 05:57 AM
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Seems like a lot of us came away with the same conclusions.
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  #30  
Old 06-16-2018, 11:08 PM
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So, no one is going to mention that this series ended with essentially a psychic orgy scene?

What surprised me the most was that they let it end so well for most everyone. The plots have seemed a bit simplistic, but good fun. I don't think there was a way to end this series so quickly without it being a bit simplistic.

I wish the series could have gone into more of the complications that would be inevitable when you find yourself in a group mind. It wouldn't always be nice. But I also get that shows like Sense 8 gave many people characters that, maybe for the first time, were more relatable. I'm glad for them that the series always respected and celebrated different life choices.

And the pot brownies may have just provided the finishing touch to and entrance that betrayed her envy, regarding the importance of the location and the guests at the wedding. She'd be swayed by that.

It was a pleasant ending to an interesting, if a bit under-played, premise. I'm glad Netflix went to some great cost to let it finish. Good call.
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