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  #46  
Old 06-26-2018, 09:39 PM
Hypatia Hypatia is offline
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Originally Posted by sense8ional View Post
It didn't look like a great cost to me. Everything about the episode seemed much smaller in scale and scope than usually. For example the anti-collaborators force consisted of all of 3 people, only 2 of which were seen in battle, for like 30 seconds.

To me it looked like a $10-15M parting gift if I compare it to previous seasons (and if it's closer to $15M, it must be because of the Eiffel Tower sequence and fireworks show), which isn't that expensive given its length (~3 episodes). I'm glad they greenlit it, Netflix were by no means obligated, but I don't think they struggled to allocate the amount of money it cost, for one final time. It wasn't that much.

edit But maybe you don't mean "great cost" as literally as I took it
Yea, I had read how expensive the location shooting made the series. I assumed the finale wasn't cheap, especially when they couldn't expect to get it back in syndication, or anything like that.
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  #47  
Old 06-26-2018, 09:44 PM
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I just couldn't buy the non-sensate members of the group also experiencing the link during the final orgy, with no real explanation given.

Sure, I accept that we're watching an SF show, so anything can happen, but a lot of the sharing / visiting / Sensate experience seemed very tightly nailed down in S1, with it getting sloppier and sloppier as the series went on. Just didn't work for me. For the non-sensates, it seems more plausible that they'd have totally lost their shit and broken off making love at that point. But, that doens't make for a great orgy scene...
That is actually a very good observation. Yea, it wasn't realistic. But it was meant to be a fan pleaser. But I doubt I was the only one laughing.

I liked The Dollhouse better, actually. But I think Sense8 may be more of a story for the Millennial age.
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  #48  
Old 06-27-2018, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Hypatia View Post
That is actually a very good observation. Yea, it wasn't realistic. But it was meant to be a fan pleaser. But I doubt I was the only one laughing.

I liked The Dollhouse better, actually. But I think Sense8 may be more of a story for the Millennial age.
Ah Yes, Dollhouse had an interesting take on personality / ability / imprint sharing. Also, great concept that was a tad wasted by the network pulling strings. The original pilot was awesome, the pilot that aired was total garbage. Would have loved to have seen that series roll forward based on the un-aired pilot (which I think appeared on the DVDs).

Yeah, I wanted grander things from the overarching plot in Sense8.
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  #49  
Old 06-27-2018, 07:53 AM
YorgosH YorgosH is offline
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That is actually a very good observation. Yea, it wasn't realistic. But it was meant to be a fan pleaser. But I doubt I was the only one laughing.
There wasn't any sharing between non-sensates. They were all there. Actually, that's what I found meaningful about the final orgy. The fact that it was grounded in reality, and the union was firstly based on couples, mostly between humans and sensates, with no distinction between them. There was no sharing at all, apart from love sharing, as cheesy as that might be for some.

I think the difference between shows like Dollhouse and Sense8, as far as the multiple personalities thing goes, is that there is none of that in Sense8. The individuals that share bodies and minds are exactly that, individual, independent, discreet personalities that still communicate through absolute empathy, and I think the experiment of the show was to create plot without many conflicts, for the most part (speaking about the main characters). Whether it worked or not, that might need a conversation to be held. What I mean by that is that having different characters accept each other through empathy, without more questions asked most of the time, might seem unrealistic and/or simplistic, but I think that this was the whole point of the show, since the very beginning. (Plus, the Wachowskis aren't great at characters, so they found a way to take a detour away from that)

All in all, I think, counting the sense8 finale as a movie, it's by far my least favourite thing any Wachowski has ever made, but still, it's quite interesting...and unexpected, if you think about it.

Last edited by YorgosH; 06-27-2018 at 08:16 AM.
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  #50  
Old 06-28-2018, 08:42 PM
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but still, it's quite interesting...and unexpected, if you think about it.
And I just to replay the tape again, it is also one of the most challenging things they've ever made when one considers how quickly this project was conceived, produced, and distributed. Yes the foundation was already there, but things had to be sorted, condensed, and pieced together in a relatively short amount of time spanning many borders and personalities.
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  #51  
Old 06-29-2018, 03:10 AM
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And I just to replay the tape again, it is also one of the most challenging things they've ever made when one considers how quickly this project was conceived, produced, and distributed. Yes the foundation was already there, but things had to be sorted, condensed, and pieced together in a relatively short amount of time spanning many borders and personalities.
Personally, and taken as a whole, I think Sense8 is the best thing they've been involved with since the first Matrix film. Cloud Atlas being a close second. But their blockbuster style films ring very hollow for me, no matter what reading you want to apply retrospectively. See the old thread on Jupiter Ascending if you want an in depth look at why I feel this way about much of their work.
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Last edited by Ubik; 06-29-2018 at 03:53 AM.
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  #52  
Old 06-29-2018, 11:09 AM
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I don't think it's controversial to say that for the majority of people (randoms), Sense8 is easily the best thing both the Wachowskis and JMS have done since the 90s.
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  #53  
Old 06-29-2018, 05:20 PM
YorgosH YorgosH is offline
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Replying to the three preceding posts:

Yes, the whole production of the finale was a great achievement, and I'm fully aware of that. I mostly wish the Lila subplot was done and over with much faster and without that action scene, because they obviously didn't even have time to do it right (I love their action scenes, most of the time) and because they could have used those 10 minutes to do something more substantial. If that was different, I would be almost fully content with the finale, but I never trust the Wachowskis to prioritize correctly, and I say that lovingly, haha (that's why I really wish Straczynski was equally involved).

Now, Sense8 comes third on my personal list of the best things the Wachowskis have done, after Revolutions on the first place (yes, really) and Speed Racer on the second one (could be on the first one instead), and contains two of the most well-made scenes I've ever seen (the whole cluster birth and main characters introduction scene, and the sequence where they re-live their births).

Regarding to the blockbuster-y nature of their work, that's who they are, and that's why they are not well received. They are too weird for the main audience and too mainstream and pop-based for "cinephiles".
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  #54  
Old 07-01-2018, 02:38 AM
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I still feel quite... empty about this. It just didn't feel real. It felt like fan fiction, in that it somehow felt external to the show itself. It seemed like something made by fans to celebrate the impact of the show on them personally, rather than a continuation of the story made by the same people. It's like a subtle shift of perspective happened, and to me it affected everything.

The worst part, I think, is that all the painful intensity of the show seems to have been drained out. The sense of danger, of suffering, of the immense cost of fighting back. It's weird that a show that was so much about the underdogs, the oppressed, ends with the government throwing them a party in the Eiffel Tower because they blew up a bureaucrat with a rocket launcher. Come to think of it, the lifestyle of the characters in the finale looks like they're all Instagram celebrities. I know that can be justified in the story, to a degree, but it feels off.

I don't think the Wachowskis are bad at characters, by the way - I love the characters in the Matrix trilogy, and they did a spectacular job adapting Cloud Atlas and bringing its characters to life. And I love the combination of intelligence and craft they bring to their work. That was evident all throughout the first two seasons of Sense8.

Ironically, to me it seems like it was precisely the attention of the internet, the show as cultural rather than artistic phenomenon, that made the finale self-reflective in a way that sabotaged its own ambitions.
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  #55  
Old 07-01-2018, 04:20 AM
YorgosH YorgosH is offline
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Ironically, to me it seems like it was precisely the attention of the internet, the show as cultural rather than artistic phenomenon, that made the finale self-reflective in a way that sabotaged its own ambitions.
This was *exactly* my thought while watching the last 20 minutes, and I still think that way, but I am convinced that the episode still hides a layer consisting on thoughts of what the necessity of the existence of sensates is about, and if it's got anything to do with their superpowers or not. And that was something I did not expect from the episode, so I welcomed it, even though the episode did not feel real at all. There is a possibility that this was a deliberate choice. To write this episode in this way in order not to seem ungrateful to the fans, but, by doing this, it seemed ungrateful to and somehow disrespectful of their earlier work. Either way, now I will just have to wait till their next project, after this somewhat bitter taste.

By the way, I *never* watched the show because of its cultural importance, plus I think its diversity could have been much realer. I have always watched it because of its sincerity and its artistic accomplishment.

Last edited by YorgosH; 07-01-2018 at 04:24 AM.
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  #56  
Old 07-03-2018, 01:25 AM
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Just to chime in, I largely agree that the episode is derailed a lot to please the core audience, and the minute you start doing anything in line with fan expectation, be it making music, film, TV, art in general... that's a nail in the coffin creatively. I really respect the effort and the fact this got made, but there are just too many things that seem downright silly and go against that carefully thought out first season. I mentioned it already, but the massive gun toting action scenes alone just had me sat there unable to suspend my disbelief. It also seems so at odds with the core values of the show in terms of how the Sensates and their 'normal' companions embrace killing without discretion or remorse. As Jonas said there is also no palpable sense of danger, risk, or cost to the cluster. it's like a weird fairy tale as opposed to the very considered show we started out with. At no point did I feel emotionally invested or on the edge of my seat. It's also indicative of a larger problem, that even in S2 things had started to devolved into the Cluster vs 'the man', and anyone not on the side of good (the cluster) is a binary BAD with very little grey area or nuance on that side of things.
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Last edited by Ubik; 07-04-2018 at 12:37 AM.
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  #57  
Old 07-03-2018, 11:50 AM
YorgosH YorgosH is offline
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Honestly, I was expecting (and dreading) this amount of fan-service long before it was broadcasted. It was expected because it's the first Wachowski-involving project that had that much positive feedback in years, so Lana probably felt she deeply needed to maintain that. Wrongly, obviously.
Still, we will always have the underlying meaning that I mentioned in my posts above, that I really think was what the finale was about. We will also always have great scenes like the Dani-Whispers scene, the chairman scene, the nightclub scene, the speech about change and most of all...the breathtaking "I Feel You" scene. And that's something.

-- oh, and the Magnetic Fields scene. And the tourists trojan horse scene. And Rajan's closing line. Generally, little, small bits throughout the episode.

Last edited by YorgosH; 07-04-2018 at 08:13 AM.
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  #58  
Old 07-03-2018, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by YorgosH View Post
Honestly, I was expecting (and dreading) this amount of fan-service long before it was broadcasted. It was expected because it's the first Wachowski-involved project that had that much positive feedback in years, so Lana probably felt she deeply needed to maintain that. Wrongly, obviously.
Still, we will always have the underlying meaning that I mentioned in my posts above, that I really think was what the finale was about. We will also always have great scenes like the Dani-Whispers scene, the chairman scene, the nightclub scene, the speech about change and most of all...the breathtaking "I Feel You" scene. And that's something.
It's not so "obvious" lol. The fanservice was well received for the most part. I know because I have posted dozens of reviews in the relevant thread, from all over the world, and the majority of them made mention of this in a positive manner! Phrases like "fan service done right", etc. were often used. And from the early screenings we have reports the fans cheered to the fanservice. And I have read the entirety of the reddit thread about the finale and this wasn't often a point of criticism. So I know that it worked well for plenty of both hardcore fans and the journalists/movie bloggers that might have more distance with the show.

Not everyone, of course! But it hasn't so "obviously" backfired, is what I'm trying to say.

The most common criticism I have encountered when reading reviews is the time compressed and somewhat simplistic nature of it (one rocket solves.. everything!). And from fans, it's the poly resolution of the triangle.

But, I, too, was expecting the fanservice, because Lana kept saying something like "now the fans efforts will forever be a part of the show".
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