JMSNews Community Site

Go Back   JMSNews Forums > Discussion > Off Topic Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-21-2017, 08:45 AM
sense8ional's Avatar
sense8ional sense8ional is online now
Just a fan
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,379
Whedonesque shuts down following allegations about Whedon being a serial cheater

This is a blog post by Whedon's ex-wife: http://www.thewrap.com/joss-whedon-f...kai-cole-says/

Some quotes:

Quote:
There were times in our relationship that I was uncomfortable with the attention Joss paid other women. He always had a lot of female friends, but he told me it was because his mother raised him as a feminist, so he just liked women better. He said he admired and respected females, he didn’t lust after them. I believed him and trusted him. On the set of “Buffy,” Joss decided to have his first secret affair.

Fifteen years later, when he was done with our marriage and finally ready to tell the truth, he wrote me, “When I was running ‘Buffy,’ I was surrounded by beautiful, needy, aggressive young women. It felt like I had a disease, like something from a Greek myth. Suddenly I am a powerful producer and the world is laid out at my feet and I can’t touch it.” But he did touch it. He said he understood, “I would have to lie — or conceal some part of the truth — for the rest of my life,” but he did it anyway, hoping that first affair, “would be ENOUGH, that THEN we could move on and outlast it.”

Joss admitted that for the next decade and a half, he hid multiple affairs and a number of inappropriate emotional ones that he had with his actresses, co-workers, fans and friends, while he stayed married to me. He wrote me a letter when our marriage was falling apart, but I still didn’t know the whole truth, and said, “I’ve never loved anyone or wanted to be with anyone in any real or long-term way except for you ever. And I love our life. I love how you are, how we are, who you are and what we’ve done both separately and together, how much fun we have…” He wanted it all; he didn’t want to choose, so he accepted the duality as a part of his life.
Quote:
Despite understanding, on some level, that what he was doing was wrong, he never conceded the hypocrisy of being out in the world preaching feminist ideals, while at the same time, taking away my right to make choices for my life and my body based on the truth. He deceived me for 15 years, so he could have everything he wanted. I believed, everyone believed, that he was one of the good guys, committed to fighting for women’s rights, committed to our marriage, and to the women he worked with. But I now see how he used his relationship with me as a shield, both during and after our marriage, so no one would question his relationships with other women or scrutinize his writing as anything other than feminist.

My entire reality changed overnight, and I went from being a strong, confident woman, to a confused, frightened mess. I was eventually diagnosed with Complex PTSD and for the last five years, I have worked hard to make sense of everything that happened and find my balance again.
Quote:
Until recently, Joss was still letting the illusion of our marriage stay intact. Now that it is finally public, I want to let women know that he is not who he pretends to be. I want the people who worship him to know he is human, and the organizations giving him awards for his feminist work, to think twice in the future about honoring a man who does not practice what he preaches. But no matter what happens, or how people interpret this statement, I no longer have to carry the burden of Joss’ long-term deceit and confessions. I am free.
Whedon's team responded: “While this account includes inaccuracies and misrepresentations which can be harmful to their family, Joss is not commenting, out of concern for his children and out of respect for his ex-wife.”

And finally Whedonesque's decision to shut down after the alleged truth about Whedon's character came out: http://whedonesque.com/comments/36482

Quote:
So farewell then. 15 years is a long time and a lot of water has flowed under the bridge. But now it's time to say goodbye. No more threads after this one, we're closing down. The site will at some stage become a read only site. So if you want to leave your contact details in this thread for other posters to get in touch that would be great otherwise email us at whedonesque@gmail.com.

The admins would like to thank the posters at this site. You made this site and we wouldn't have lasted as long as we could without you. So thank you. And if you want to mark our passing, please find a charity or organisation that deals with the treatment of Complex post-traumatic stress disorder (C-PTSD) and leave a donation.

And a special thanks to Caroline who I had the privilege of meeting.
__________________
My posts are my own opinion and do not represent JMSNews.com's opinions or views. As it's written under my handle I'm "just a fan".
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-21-2017, 09:01 AM
Ubik's Avatar
Ubik Ubik is offline
Vorlon Visitor
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: York, UK
Posts: 1,942
I saw the post written by Whedon's ex-wife today.

Unsure how to feel about it, Whedon has done a lot of positive work in terms of portraying strong female characters across a variety of media. With any separation, it's hard to know what has transpired without being 'in' the relationship or hearing from both parties. I tend to feel like these details should remain between people in the relationship, as it can become tit for tat character assassination.

There's probably some truth in there, and I tend to try and divorce the work of any creator from their personal life anyway, unless it's something seriously beyond the pale that would force me to boycott their work. In this case, it's impossible to know the exact circumstances. I hope it's not turned into a stick with which to beat Joss, because a failed marriage shouldn't detract from his work.

How do folks feel about this?
__________________
Captain John Sheridan: I really *hate* it when you do that.

Kosh: Good!

Last edited by Ubik; 08-21-2017 at 09:30 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-21-2017, 09:39 AM
sense8ional's Avatar
sense8ional sense8ional is online now
Just a fan
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,379
I never gave a crap about Whedon as Whedon, or Whedon as a feminist, so to me it doesn't change anything. I liked his work, nothing more, nothing less, if he keeps making good work, cool.

I also kinda assume a lot of successful Hollywood persons are having affairs - I don't know if I'm wrong about that! Which doesn't make it "right" (if it's true that he did these things), but it does make it something that would fit my expectations. (Also: I *hate* cheaters and would *never* cheat, so I am not excusing such behavior.. just saying I expect it to be the norm in Hollywood.) If some people for some reason thought Whedon would "never" do something like that and are now shocked and appalled.. ok.. Me, I never assumed about him and expected of him nothing more than writing the occasionally good script or having a strong vision.

Finally, whether Whedon is a "fake" feminist: Saying "oh I am surrounded by all these beautiful women because I am such a feminist, don't worry about it darling" is certainly gross. But cheating on its own does not make one less of a feminist.. It just makes them a shitty person.
__________________
My posts are my own opinion and do not represent JMSNews.com's opinions or views. As it's written under my handle I'm "just a fan".

Last edited by sense8ional; 08-21-2017 at 09:42 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-21-2017, 10:47 AM
Jan's Avatar
Jan Jan is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 13,351
I think...it's none of my business.

It's a shame - but my main hope, having a slightly similar experience is that she doesn't allow herself to become (rather, remain) bitter. It's somewhat obvious that the article(s) are self-serving. For instance, I look askance at the 'complex PTSD' given what little we know about the circumstances.

Other than that, I don't expect people whose work I like and admire to be anything less than human. The fact that he's written some amazing and powerful woman characters isn't changed by this. Those characters still remain. And I agree that his (allegedly) having done some sleazy things doesn't make him less of a feminist.
__________________
"Anyone who advocates for "alternative facts" has moved from the language of obfuscation to the language of tyranny." JMS Twitter Jan. 22, 2017
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-21-2017, 12:18 PM
Ubik's Avatar
Ubik Ubik is offline
Vorlon Visitor
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: York, UK
Posts: 1,942
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan View Post
I think...it's none of my business.

It's a shame - but my main hope, having a slightly similar experience is that she doesn't allow herself to become (rather, remain) bitter. It's somewhat obvious that the article(s) are self-serving. For instance, I look askance at the 'complex PTSD' given what little we know about the circumstances.

Other than that, I don't expect people whose work I like and admire to be anything less than human. The fact that he's written some amazing and powerful woman characters isn't changed by this. Those characters still remain. And I agree that his (allegedly) having done some sleazy things doesn't make him less of a feminist.
You pretty much summed up my thoughts on the matter perfectly. It's a shame that in this day and age, he will be dragged through the mud on every social media platform by 'holier than thou' numbskulls. It's when I pity people being celebrities, because your personal life can be very public.
__________________
Captain John Sheridan: I really *hate* it when you do that.

Kosh: Good!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-22-2017, 05:53 AM
Jonas's Avatar
Jonas Jonas is offline
[Zathras Conspiracy]
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: A hollow duck in orbit around Ganymede.
Posts: 690
Agreed with all of the above.
__________________
Jonas Kyratzes | Lands of Dream
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-22-2017, 06:21 AM
phazedout's Avatar
phazedout phazedout is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 883
I'm inclined to agree in terms of the body of the work.

My cf on this is Orson Scott Card. Having read the enders game series when IW as a lot ounger and subsequently read two of the gate thief series, his opinions on women and the way in which he writes both Male (dominant, controlling) and female (subserviant, baby machines) characters makes it very ccelar in the work that his viewpoint comes through. I've never had issues with any of Joss's female characters, Card on the other hand, makes me very uncomfortable when reading.
__________________
"There are no good wars. War is always the worst possible way to resolve differences. It degenerates and corrupts both sides to ever more sordid levels of existence, in their need to gain an advantage over the enemy. Those actively involved in combat are almost always damaged goods for the rest of their lives. If their bodies don't bear scars, their minds do, ofttimes both. Many have said it before, but it can't be said to enough, war is hell. "
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-23-2017, 11:42 AM
Satai with Punsch's Avatar
Satai with Punsch Satai with Punsch is offline
Friendly Archaeologist
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Posts: 94
This whole business is just sad, for everyone involved.

I do not think these things belong in the public eye at all. Sure, I can understand that she wanted to point out the fact that Whedon is a terrible person and make sure that all females that have worked with him now have a slept her way to the job-stamp.

But to try to word it that he does not deserve to call him self a feminist or the awards he have won, that is going to far. His TV-shows and his awards are all things that outsiders judged based on how it affected them. That have nothing to do with his family failures. If it turns out that all his strong female characters and such were invented by her, well, then it is a different story. But I am rather sure we will never get any unbiased details about this.

What saddens me the more though is that this will color peoples view of the shows.

What saddens me most is that the great Whedonesque site is shutting down. Although it was a decision years in the making, this was probably the final straw. That place have been my link to a fan community on the same level as the Babylon 5 one for almost 15 years and a comfy blanket.

All in all i am very sad and disheartened today
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-23-2017, 01:10 PM
Jan's Avatar
Jan Jan is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 13,351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satai with Punsch View Post
... and make sure that all females that have worked with him now have a slept her way to the job-stamp.
And if that were what anybody were to think, that's really, really sick. Sad that anybody could have such a disgusting double standard in this day and age.
__________________
"Anyone who advocates for "alternative facts" has moved from the language of obfuscation to the language of tyranny." JMS Twitter Jan. 22, 2017
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-24-2017, 02:37 PM
Satai with Punsch's Avatar
Satai with Punsch Satai with Punsch is offline
Friendly Archaeologist
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Posts: 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan View Post
And if that were what anybody were to think, that's really, really sick. Sad that anybody could have such a disgusting double standard in this day and age.
It is sad indeed.
Now when we have been told that he has had multiple affairs and inappropriate emotional ones (I am not sure what that actually means though) with actresses as well as co-workers everyone looking for a reason to discredit anyone or just looking for something sensational will assume the worst about all of them. As we will never know the details all kinds of speculations can run wild.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-25-2017, 02:32 PM
sarthaz sarthaz is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 135
Sad story, but all too familiar. I'm probably a robot, but I'm totally able to separate Whedon the husband from Whedon the feminist from Whedon the artist, and I don't make the leap from cheating philanderer to non-feminist. I know that's what his ex wants us all to do, and I'm not going to blame an aggrieved spouse for anything she does at this point, but I don't go there with it. I learned long ago that our entertainment "heroes" will almost always let you down. You may have shared a moment with them at a convention or think they're something from their public persona, but you never have any idea what they're like for real, so it's always dangerous, always folly to conflate their art with their person.

In the case of Whedon, he consistently and repeatedly wrote strong female characters, created strong stories for them to shepherd, and advanced the cause of women in entertainment and to some extent women's rights across the board. That he is probably a douchebag doesn't really change that, and I don't really conflate feminism with fidelity.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-25-2017, 04:21 PM
Jan's Avatar
Jan Jan is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 13,351
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarthaz View Post
I know that's what his ex wants us all to do, and I'm not going to blame an aggrieved spouse for anything she does at this point, but I don't go there with it.
Oh, I'll blame her, no problem. She's crossed the line into pure spite and I've got no use for that, regardless of how hurt she might be. Nobody but the two of them and their attorneys had any business knowing anything about their issues. The *only* reason for that letter was to hurt him in the eyes of fans.

Quote:
That he is probably a douchebag doesn't really change that, and I don't really conflate feminism with fidelity.
Since I don't use sexually linked terms, I'd call him an asshole. And every woman he was involved with would also get that descriptor. In this day and age, no way any woman could pretend that she didn't know that Joss Whedon was married.
__________________
"Anyone who advocates for "alternative facts" has moved from the language of obfuscation to the language of tyranny." JMS Twitter Jan. 22, 2017

Last edited by Jan; 08-25-2017 at 05:13 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-27-2017, 11:30 AM
sarthaz sarthaz is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan View Post
Oh, I'll blame her, no problem. She's crossed the line into pure spite and I've got no use for that, regardless of how hurt she might be. Nobody but the two of them and their attorneys had any business knowing anything about their issues. The *only* reason for that letter was to hurt him in the eyes of fans.
That's fair. I guess having seen both sides of this in many families, I tend to be more forgiving of obviously bad choices made by people who have been wronged over a long period of time. It doesn't excuse it, and I don't disagree with its transparent pettiness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan View Post
Since I don't use sexually linked terms, I'd call him an asshole. And every woman he was involved with would also get that descriptor. In this day and age, no way any woman could pretend that she didn't know that Joss Whedon was married.
I'd argue the asshole is more sexually linked these days than a douchebag, but I'll go with it. And no doubt -- there's lots of blame to go around. The only caveat I'd give towards that is age and power. I don't know who the who's are in this, and I totally don't discount that this goes both ways, but there is a distinction between the power one wields as writer/producer/director/show-runner and, well, pretty much everyone else involved. I'd be surprised if some of these women (if not most) weren't led to believe career paths and futures were at stake (no pun intended), as sadly, such things are fairly common in said industry. As such, all assholes are not created equal, so to speak.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-27-2017, 11:42 AM
Ubik's Avatar
Ubik Ubik is offline
Vorlon Visitor
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: York, UK
Posts: 1,942
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarthaz View Post
I'd be surprised if some of these women (if not most) weren't led to believe career paths and futures were at stake (no pun intended), as sadly, such things are fairly common in said industry. As such, all assholes are not created equal, so to speak.
Really? I find this a very cynical reading of the situation. If anything I would think more 'time spent on set / working on a show' would naturally equate to some chemistry and relationships being formed. Not 'if you don't sleep with me I'll ruin your career'. Apologies if i have misread your intent with the above statement, but that seems a bit harsh to me. I would have thought we'd have seen some actresses speaking out if Whedon was that manipulative. Personally, I don't think so. Things happen when people work in close quarters like that. All I really took away from this was that Joss is human too, and messes up from time to time, like the rest of the species.
__________________
Captain John Sheridan: I really *hate* it when you do that.

Kosh: Good!

Last edited by Ubik; 08-27-2017 at 11:50 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-27-2017, 12:03 PM
sarthaz sarthaz is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubik View Post
Really? I find this a very cynical reading of the situation. If anything I would think more 'time spent on set / working on a show' would naturally equate to some chemistry and relationships being formed. Not 'if you don't sleep with me I'll ruin your career'. Apologies if i have misread your itent with the above, but that seems a bit harsh to me. I would have thought we'd have seen some actresses speaking out if Whedon was that manipulative. Personally, I don't think so. Things happen when people work in close quarters like that. All I really took away from this was that Joss is human too, as messes up from time to time, like the rest of the species.
I think what you suggest is totally possible. It could be 100% mutual close-quarters relationships or 100% person-in-power manipulating people to his will or somewhere in between. But this is why workplaces have rules against subordinate relationships. You can't really know. I am in no way suggesting that I know what happened, and I'd like to believe that it's all just close-quarters love-on-set stuff, but beyond his failed responsibilities as husband and father, he also had a responsibility as a producer. And it's not a stretch to think that a serial philanderer who took liberties in other areas didn't also push the boundaries of power. Don't get me wrong, I'm not holding him to a higher standard than anyone else, and I don't doubt a good 50% or more of men in his position probably would have behaved the same way. I just don't think it's appropriate to put his subordinates on the same level of assholishness. As for people speaking out, regardless of what happened with anyone, no one has anything to gain by speaking about anything. Unless it's a full-on Cosby situation, no one with an active career is going to talk about this.

If I had to guess, I'd guess some of it was mutual, some people used him, and he used others. Just a gut on human nature. But I could be totally wrong and don't intend to be overly cynical. Perhaps I am, though.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.