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  #46  
Old 06-04-2017, 09:35 AM
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Honestly, it seems to me that they just dumped Season 2, having already decided to kill the show before that. They did a terrible job advertising it, too, like they weren't even trying (or just relying on "diversity" to sell it, maybe).
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  #47  
Old 06-04-2017, 10:05 AM
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There was a limited promotion of season 2 (less than season 1), but the Christmas Special was pretty much sent to die. They released a trailer and a video with Lana talking about it a week before it was released. That's it. 0 interviews with JMS, Grant Hill, or the cast (aside of attending CCXP and having a screening there).

They should had somehow tried to sell it as an event, "the return of Sense8!", etc but no such luck. I know a lot of people on other forums that didn't watch the special until May 5, 2017 when the season 2 proper was released, simply because they didn't know anything about it. A lot of "holy crap, first episode of season 2 is 2 hours long, WTF is this?!" posts.

Still, it appears they did have some interest in making a third season, evidenced by the fact they were trying to renew the lapsed contracts of the actors. Although as Jan has commented, it's pretty shocking they let them lapse in the first place - it's like at some point they did give up on it, and only later started to reconsider.
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Last edited by sense8ional; 06-04-2017 at 10:16 AM.
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  #48  
Old 06-04-2017, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sense8ional View Post
There was a limited promotion of season 2 (less than season 1), but the Christmas Special was pretty much sent to die. They released a trailer and a video with Lana talking about it a week before it was released. That's it. 0 interviews with JMS, Grant Hill, or the cast (aside of attending CCXP and having a screening there).

They should had somehow tried to sell it as an event, "the return of Sense8!", etc but no such luck. I know a lot of people on other forums that didn't watch the special until May 5, 2017 when the season 2 proper was released, simply because they didn't know anything about it. A lot of "holy crap, first episode of season 2 is 2 hours long, WTF is this?!" posts.

Still, it appears they did have some interest in making a third season, evidenced by the fact they were trying to renew the lapsed contracts of the actors. Although as Jan has commented, it's pretty shocking they let them lapse in the first place - it's like at some point they did give up on it, and only later started to reconsider.
If anything, I thought the Christmas special was a bad move. I understand the logic behind it, and it was a cool thing to want to do, but the end product was patchy as hell. It made me a bit nervous about the 2nd season. Of course, they went and surpassed all my expectations with S2. It was exactly what I wanted form the show. The Christmas special, however, felt like a disjointed and overly long sequence of montages that didn't add up to much. Had its moments, but I could have turned off half way through and not regretted it. I still see it as a bit of a 'stand alone' anomaly that filled in some gaps, but didn't act a very good bridge to S2. Could have been a lot better conceived and I still wonder why it wasn't better constructed. it definitely wasn't a good way to grab new viewers who might have stumbled across it.
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Last edited by Ubik; 06-04-2017 at 12:56 PM.
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  #49  
Old 06-04-2017, 04:05 PM
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Yeah, I don't think it's a very good episode but it doesn't change the fact it was the return of the show after 1.5+ year. As a 2-hour special! Christmas-themed (well partially)! It screamed to be advertised as a if not the Christmas event of Netflix.

As for attracting new viewers, I don't think that was or should had been its job. It's not like traditional TV where past episodes aren't readily available, so S02E01 is your second chance to sell the show to people.

The episode became available on Netflix under "Season 2", and I would like to think that no sane viewer thought "okay, the entire first season of this show with 8 lead characters is available to me with just 1 click, but I will instead start with S02E01".
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  #50  
Old 06-04-2017, 05:29 PM
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I never thought the special had any purpose but to bridge a long period of time during the 'stake-out'.
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  #51  
Old 06-04-2017, 09:32 PM
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Netflix isn’t a brick and mortar studio who relies on test screenings and Nielsen to get an idea of viewing figures and reactions. They have an online real-time database which tells them exactly who is watching, how often, where they are, when they’re watching, etc.
So I was thinking about this quote. One trend I have noticed among my friends is that they rarely get excited about shows coming to Netflix when they are first released. Sure there are some that they can't wait to watch the day they go up on Netflix, but for the most part they have accepted the idea that once it is on Netflix they can go watch it anytime - this concept holds especially true with Netflix original series. I myself rarely rush to watch a show when it first appears on Netflix anymore, with the exception Sense 8. I did watch Sense 8 Season 2 the day it premiered, but just the first episode. I wanted to take my time and enjoy it. If what Triple F mentioned is true then it sounds like millions of people have to binge watch the entire season of a show the weekend it goes up on Netflix if they want it to be successful. I hope this isn't true because that means my wanting to take my time and enjoy Sense 8 Season Two damaged the shows success. I also hope this isn't true because it is ridiculous. I've binge watched entire seasons of shows and found it very difficult to retain any memory of all I saw. Yeah I could watch it again, but not immediately. You can't expect people to watch and keep watching hour after hour and then start it over when it finishes.

Anyway another thing I have been thinking about is how expensive having all of these Marvel shows on Netflix must be. Don't get me wrong, I know Netflix is making plenty of money, but I am sure their cutting shows down is in some part due to the expense of their Marvel shows. And other than Daredevil I'm not sure their Marvel shows are the successes they wanted them to be.

I don't know, it is late and I am rambling because I still don't want this to be true - in part because I don't want it to be over and in part because I don't think this is good for JMS' street cred.
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  #52  
Old 06-05-2017, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Looney View Post
Anyway another thing I have been thinking about is how expensive having all of these Marvel shows on Netflix must be. Don't get me wrong, I know Netflix is making plenty of money, but I am sure their cutting shows down is in some part due to the expense of their Marvel shows. And other than Daredevil I'm not sure their Marvel shows are the successes they wanted them to be.

I don't know, it is late and I am rambling because I still don't want this to be true - in part because I don't want it to be over and in part because I don't think this is good for JMS' street cred.
I totally agree that shows need time to grow legs. Not everything is going to be binged by millions of people straight away. I have a feeling Sense8 would have been one of those shows that gradually built a cult following. This was definitely happening, especially with the strong support from the LGBT community.

I reckon the Marvel shows will be very cheap to make in terms of per episode costs when compared to Sense8. Iron Fist was awful, but I don't think it will have been too expensive to produce. The Marvel shows are rarely that stunt or FX heavy. They are basically dramas with added superheroes. The advantage with the Marvel show is that they have a very large inbuilt audience, some of whom will watch anything that falls under that banner, no matter what. I have a suspicion that even the worst rated Marvel show (probably Iron Fist) will still outrank Sense8 by a large margin. Of course, I am speculating here, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume.

Whilst I really admire the ambition of Sense8 with the country hopping narrative, it's definitely the high cost of filming in multiple countries and the big ensemble cast that will have sunk them. I have no idea if they perhaps went over budget with S2? Pure speculation on my part, but some of the quotes Jan posted earlier might be a nod towards this. I do worry for the Wachowskis, as its yet another production that has cost a lot of money yet failed to hit the numbers needed for it to be viable. Although, the big difference is that I think it was a very worthwhile endeavour and much better than any of their Hollywood offerings of the past 10 years.
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Last edited by Ubik; 06-05-2017 at 02:05 AM.
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  #53  
Old 06-05-2017, 01:36 AM
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The initial agreement between Marvel and Netflix was for a total budget of $200M for 60 episodes (13 episodes x 4 shows + 8 episodes of The Defenders team-up).

We don't know exactly how the budget is shared between those shows, but if we simply divide the two numbers we end up with average budget of $3.33M/episode, pretty cheap.
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  #54  
Old 06-05-2017, 05:48 AM
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http://www.looper.com/68464/real-rea...nse8-canceled/

"The real reason Sense8 was canceled"

Well, okay, the title is click-baity a bit because it doesn't list one definitive reason but several probable contributing ones, ranging from large budget and difficulty to market to initial lukewarm reviews and no major award nominations and so on. Good article.

Since Sense8 failed to garner ratings, critical buzz and major award nominations, the best things it had to offer to Netflix were:

a) that it was a global-friendly show (but by now Netflix is available all over the world (fun fact: when it premiered in 2015 Netflix wasn't even available in my country), and it turns out that, say, India audiences enjoy watching the Marvel shows on it etc, just as much as the American audiences were)

b) an invitation to Hollywood directors to join the network (but they are getting those anyway)

c) and acclaim for having LGBT characters (but a show like Supergirl is probably much more celebrated by LGBT audiences than Sense8 ever was).

edit The petition will be at 400K within the hour: https://www.change.org/p/netflixlat-...ason-3-renewal
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Last edited by sense8ional; 06-05-2017 at 06:05 AM.
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  #55  
Old 06-05-2017, 08:56 AM
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I recall JMS saying once long ago that networks tended to renew even low-rated shows if they stayed within budget. With his comments that he didn't even see the budget for sense8 season 2 I will speculate that it did not stay under the expected cost.

I haven't finished watching season 2 yet but it is really good. It is too bad it ends now.
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  #56  
Old 06-05-2017, 09:14 AM
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Ameen's departure probably made it go over budget a bit.

Any footage he shot in Berlin and Mumbai had to be trashed and we lost the New Years' celebration of the 8. Early stunt scenes in Berlin, like Capheus' hanging, as Sun is hanged, are reshoots, because they had shot them super early with Ameen.

In Malta they shot in the water tanks for the Christmas Special's underwater opening, which they had already shot on location in Positano, but with no Capheus / a stunt double, as Ameen had left and Onwumere became part of the cast about a week later.

I don't know how it works, but if Ameen was getting paid in pre-production to train (I know he trained with a motorbike, but I also mean gym etc?) also went to waste.

Despite all that, filming didn't take much longer than season 1. I remember when I calculated it at some point it was something like 1 month longer, which sounds reasonable given all that happened + bigger overheads because of the more cities.
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Last edited by sense8ional; 06-05-2017 at 09:26 AM.
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  #57  
Old 06-06-2017, 06:39 AM
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Is it just me, or has JMS been strangely quiet about the cancellation of Sense8? I expected at least some sort of statement from him. Did I miss this? I appreciate how candid he has been about the non-existent probability of a u-turn on the cancellation, but apart from that he has been strangely muted. I expect he may be grieving like the rest of us.

I guess I just expected something to address the fans, and perhaps something a bit more emotive given how hard they worked on the show. Hopefully at some point we can get more details of the exact nature of the cancellation. I don't know if he's just being professional by keeping relatively quiet. I guess the fans are making more than enough noise!
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  #58  
Old 06-06-2017, 07:53 AM
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I dunno. JMS has definitely pulled back a lot since the days of B5. It seems obvious that he probably had an idea that the cancellation was possible (probable?) but that he wasn't notified personally of the final hammer going down. If I were him, I'd be pissed.

That said, I keep feeling that there may well be a lot we don't know - and may never - that may have happened behind the scenes. The whole thing about the options lapsing, for instance. And the massive change between seasons JMS mentioned in this answer to my question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMS
In season one of @sense8, I was able to guide the direction of the show in a lot of significant ways both during and after the writing process because I was the only one of the three of us who came from a background in television production and budgeting. So I'd say it was more even-handed in that respect.

In season two, Lana guided the process back to territory that was more familiar coming from a big-budget feature-film background. Since I don't come from that world, my involvement more or less ended at the writing stage. From that point on Lana acted as the film-maker, and took on the responsibility for taking the show to another level in terms of budget, scale and shooting schedule. I didn’t see any of the final budgets, but from the results on-screen you can see the substantive increase in locations, sets and the like that give it a real sense of scale far beyond what I think anyone anticipated. The show moved from being a Mercedes to a Lamborghini.
There's more there than just the money aspect, I think. But it's all just a vague feeling but there's something about the "...I'd say it was more even-handed..." that strikes me as a bit off.

And he's said a whole lot more than Lana has, especially considering that season two was entirely her baby - even given the Ws famous shying away from publicity.
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  #59  
Old 06-06-2017, 08:49 AM
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You shouldn't expect Lana to say anything. She never makes statements to the press aside of the times she's been forced to do promotion (because, when possible, the Wachowskis put it in their contracts that they won't talk to the press), and she doesn't have social media. Her silence is very consistent with her past behavior and what would had surprised me would be if she had given a statement.

However, in recent years Lana has started attending events and giving talks etc, so there's a chance about that. Hopefully, before that happens somehow the Gods of TV, will have already announced a continuation / conclusion!

Personally, the way not just JMS, but also the whole cast have been very silent, I interpreted as Netflix being a very important employer to piss off. Fans are canceling their Netflix accounts in the hopes of getting a renewal, and it wouldn't be smart of anyone involved with the production to encourage, or perhaps even acknowledge that(?).

Non-answers like Onwumere's "It's pretty amazing":



or Smith (non-)responding just with emojis:



including the one with the hands in front of the monkey's mouth.
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Last edited by sense8ional; 06-06-2017 at 08:59 AM.
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  #60  
Old 06-06-2017, 10:06 AM
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I wonder if Lana (and possibly Lily) have done anything to contact Netflix and/or discuss the cancellation. Unless something comes up, I guess we'll never know. It would seem really weird if they didn't at least put up some sort of fight or had a meeting to discuss renewal after the cancellation. Like I know TV business is different, but they both worked so hard and the story is incomplete. It would be the first in their entire career something like this happened. I just don't think "cost" could have been an issue. It's very fishy to me. Especially since JMS mentioned how crowdfunding wouldn't work. Obviously we don't know if Netflix is open to the idea of getting other companies to fund one of their shows, but why else would he mention the idea of one in the first place? The W's managed to work around a limited budget on the Matrix trilogy and it turned out well. I even read online somewhere that they even managed to amass nearly $100 million to finance Cloud Atlas from various German production companies and even managed to get a hold of $20 million from the German government. They even contributed $7 million out of their own pockets. And considering all the different governments and countries they have worked with on Sense8, there is so much more potential for them to have made connections that could help them if they reached out now.

I think based on the messy announcement of the cancellation, they were not even able to discuss the budget or even get the W's to find a way around the budget (like contributing themselves or finding companies to finance them). I don't know, I'm just still so angry and upset about the cancellation. The hype, the tweets, the social media presence has not died down at all since the announcement. The petition is nearly at 450k. At this point I don't know what to expect, but I'm not getting my hopes up.
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