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  #1  
Old 11-22-2011, 10:35 PM
Linwe Arcamenel Linwe Arcamenel is offline
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Question What Happened Between Kosh and Morden in Signs and Portents?

I'm on my umpteenth viewing of Babylon 5 now, and as so often happens I've been struck with an idea that never occurred to me before and it's driving me insane. I've always assumed that Kosh won the fight with Morden and his... associates during the raider attack in Signs and Portents, mostly because a) Kosh did not die and b) Morden left soon after. But then I read this post from JMS and got to thinking: If the shadows were not prepared to kill Kosh at that point in time, is it possible he lost the fight? Kosh told Morden "Go. Leave. Now." But Morden didn't leave immediately, he stayed long enough to finish putting his hooks into Londo and then left. And he keeps coming back. If it was, as JMS says, a jurisdictional squabble, would Kosh have allowed this? He was certainly aware of it. If he had the capability to drive Morden out, why would he allow him to return and drag Londo down the road to his own doom? Thoughts?
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Old 11-23-2011, 06:59 PM
Marsden Marsden is offline
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Wow, another great question. I really don't know where to go with this one. On the one hand the Shadows and Vorlons seemed to have a cease fire between each other that they didn't attack each directly, although proxy attacks were just fine. A fight between Morden's keepers and Kosh would seem to be a violation of that, but we don't really know if that's "within the rules" of it. Like some guys in a fight but no serious wounds or fatalities. After all, when the Vorlons did actually thwart the Shadow assault they didn't take long at all to make him pay for it, and he knew it was coming. Again, almost like an agreement.

Another question I think of is, what could the B5 people possibly give Kosh to fix his Vorlon organic tech encounter suit? Wouldn't that be like asking for really inferior equipment to do a hi tech thing, like creating a mnemonic memory circuit with stone knives and bearskins? So, as silly as this might sound, if one of the Shadowmen hauled off and sucker punched Kosh, then what would he need from the EA? A hammer?
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Old 11-23-2011, 08:39 PM
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Andrew_Swallow Andrew_Swallow is offline
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{snip}
Another question I think of is, what could the B5 people possibly give Kosh to fix his Vorlon organic tech encounter suit? Wouldn't that be like asking for really inferior equipment to do a hi tech thing, like creating a mnemonic memory circuit with stone knives and bearskins? So, as silly as this might sound, if one of the Shadowmen hauled off and sucker punched Kosh, then what would he need from the EA? A hammer?
Sticky tape and filler. Something to hold the suit together until Kosh can get back to the Vorlon homeworld and proper repairs.
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Old 11-24-2011, 03:47 PM
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Sticky tape and filler. Something to hold the suit together until Kosh can get back to the Vorlon homeworld and proper repairs.
Given that the Vorlon encounter suits are probably mostly for show (and for hiding in), that makes sense.
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Old 11-24-2011, 06:53 PM
Marsden Marsden is offline
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Duck tape to the rescue!
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Old 11-26-2011, 11:14 AM
Linwe Arcamenel Linwe Arcamenel is offline
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I can just see it now...

Maintenance: Ambassador Kosh. Can we help you?
Kosh: I require... Duct Tape.
Maintenance: Duct Tape?
Kosh: Yes.
Maintenance: If I may ask-
Kosh: No.
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Old 11-26-2011, 11:52 PM
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Dan Dassow Dan Dassow is offline
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Originally Posted by Linwe Arcamenel View Post
I can just see it now...

Maintenance: Ambassador Kosh. Can we help you?
Kosh: I require... Duct Tape.
Maintenance: Duct Tape?
Kosh: Yes.
Maintenance: If I may ask-
Kosh: No.
I'm a Vorlon, but I can change, if I have to, I guess.
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Old 11-27-2011, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Marsden View Post
Another question I think of is, what could the B5 people possibly give Kosh to fix his Vorlon organic tech encounter suit? Wouldn't that be like asking for really inferior equipment to do a hi tech thing, like creating a mnemonic memory circuit with stone knives and bearskins? So, as silly as this might sound, if one of the Shadowmen hauled off and sucker punched Kosh, then what would he need from the EA? A hammer?
I just figured that Kosh would have repair material in his ship.
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Old 11-28-2011, 07:53 AM
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On the intial question of whether Kosh won or not, I think it depends on his goals. I have a vague memory of reading somewhere that it wasn't about the station so much as it was about the humans. Morden had spoken to all the major races except the humans at that point. I had always thought (in great part because of this half remembered quote that I can't place or find) that Kosh set out to prevent Morden from approaching the humans -- particularly Sinclair. The "leave now" might have been more about "leave this area" if Morden had been on his way to see the humans. If that were the case, then Kosh won because Morden left without seeing any of the command level humans.

As far as what Kosh might have needed from the humans to repair his suit, it could have been something that he then transformed through advanced tech. He just went to the nearest source for raw materials or components.
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Old 11-30-2011, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Linwe Arcamenel View Post
If he had the capability to drive Morden out, why would he allow him to return and drag Londo down the road to his own doom? Thoughts?
Kosh wasn't concerned with the Narn or Centauri at the time. "They are a dying people. We should let them pass."
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Old 12-18-2011, 09:05 AM
lotjx lotjx is offline
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I always assumed Kosh won the fight. All we know is that he took some damaged. He might have killed two or three Shadows during that. Its not like we know if the Shadows with Morden with him change or not. When they kill Kosh, I assume he lets them kill him. After seeing Ulkesh in action, I have no doubt if he wanted to, he could kill Morden. That is the one thing that bugged me about Morden, he survives a nuclear blast and gets new skin, but a good Centauri blade does the job. Part of me wishes they never did the new skin thing that he just survived with a two-face like look.
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Old 12-20-2011, 12:08 PM
Marsden Marsden is offline
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I think it was advance Shadow medical technology that allowed him to heal. They were on planet so he may have been shuttling back and forth to the palace and the island they occupied. It's a bit harder to sew his head back on, but they might have been able to do it if they got to him quick enough and Londo hadn't killed them all first.

Actually, wouldn't Kosh's suit heal itself? It's organic tech. That would explain, to me at least, why he was poisoned in "The Gathering" as the poison leeched through his suit and his "hand" was probably a mental construct of Lyta's to explain how it was his "tenticle" (or whatever) that the skin tab absorbed into.

Yes, I'm babeling.
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"Because you won't tell yourself about it?"

"I try never to get involved in my own life, too much trouble."

Last edited by Marsden; 12-20-2011 at 12:12 PM.
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